Union and Liberty: An American TL

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He had the architect that redesigned Barcelona IOTL go to the US after the Civil War and help plan out the reconstruction of Memphis and some works in downtown Chicago.
Can you say if that affected the existing buildings? I'd say not, & that's where the problem lies.
Science and Technology #1: The 1860s: A Decade at War
Am I too late to get your thoughts on naval warfare? Without the success of the USN blockade, it appears CSN/CSA wouldn't have developed submarines, nor scored the first sinking of a warship by one (as OTL). With a larger CSN, it would also appear convoy battles featuring steamships would happen much, much sooner than OTL, which has significant butterflies for U-boat warfare in *WW1. Also, does von Radetz recognize the impact of rifles on infantry tactics? If so, this might lead to a much earlier introduction of *tanks TTL (obviously, by another name...), which has very significant consequences to trench warfare. In fact, if von Radetz does emphasize maneuver more, it might be panzer divisions (or panzergrenadier divisions, initially) would develop before 1914.
The development of luzography also allowed for a more realistic vision of everyday life as luzographs were not affected by the artist's interpretation
Oh, really? Photos depend on the artist's choice of framing the subject, & of subject itself. There's also lighting & exposure to consider, both controlled by the artist. FYI, a lot of Matthew Brady's ACW pix, which look natural, were actually carefully posed.
 
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Oh, really? Photos depend on the artist's choice of framing the subject, & of subject itself. There's also lighting & exposure to consider, both controlled by the artist. FYI, a lot of Matthew Brady's ACW pix, which look natural, were actually carefully posed.

Yes, photo is an art. But early photography in OTL (as I guess ITTL as well) was seen much more as a documenting tool than an art form. And its arival did have a significant impact on art since it began to replace the need for realistic painting. It wasn't till about the 1920 when photographer began to be recognized as artists when the necessary tools to seriously manipulate a photograph had been developed. Even up to the 1930s photographers such as Jacob Riis and Dorothea Lange, whose photographs were pre-planned and posed and today are considered art, were mostly seen as documents of everyday life back then.
Even today if you read writings/essays about photography and photographers, many are still trying to justify photo as art even when it has been considered art for about a century. They have this sort of inferiority complex.
 
I really like this idea. Another interesting possibility is that California is completely annexed at first, but a rump California regains its independence at a later date such as an alternate 1960s/Civil Rights era for whatever reason.
That is an interesting idea. It could also spark some other regional independence movements if California does manage to wrangle itself away from the US. That might be an interesting idea actually...

At the same time though, you could possibly see the development of E.U.-esque organizations in Central America and the Canadas as a way to minimize America's influence.

Hmm...A Canadian Union. It has a nice ring to it. :cool:
I have plans at least for Central America. Fractious nationalism will only get you so far if you can't build a decent economy. ;)

It couldn't be called a Canadian Union because IITL Acadia, Newfoundland, and Manitoba aren't "Canadian". Acadia (New Brunswick, PEI, and Nova Scotia) and Canada (Quebec) have been already made into separate dominions.

Personnaly I like the idea of having a powerful US, surrounded by many small nations, the "Canadian" and "Mexican" states. In a way it guarantees the survival diversity and local identities across the US. If you annex California, there will be a lot of migration from the East into California. These would not only "Americanize"/whiten California but it would also flatten the rest of the US culturally as many settle, and pass through the rest of the US.
Depending on when the silver in the Sierra Nevada is found, there might be a lot of American immigration to California anyway. California will have to work hard if it wants to keep its Ibero identity intact.

World map! World map!
This is one of the first TLs I have ever read and it is quite the TL, let me tell you. :D
I'm working on an updated UCS world map. I'd do a Qazaq BAM map but I can't find the world basemap with smoothed borders.

If this isn't already well overtaken by events,;) let me say a thing or three. The gold input into a 19th Century economy was a major source of inflation, so even large debts might not be out of the question. "Digging out" might not be a viable option, as it effectively devalues the currency.:eek: Until Keynes, debt financing was very, very unpopular; balanced budget was the mantra, even in the Depression OTL.:eek::confused:
Ah rampant inflation, nothing works like precious metal findings to screw up the economy. Well, except for a "print money to pay off debts" mindset. :D

He had the architect that redesigned Barcelona IOTL go to the US after the Civil War and help plan out the reconstruction of Memphis and some works in downtown Chicago.

Can you say if that affected the existing buildings? I'd say not, & that's where the problem lies.
Ildefons Cerda probably advised American cities like Memphis to overhaul their street systems with wider boulevards and more open spaces like he planned for Barcelona's expansion, but besides Memphis, the cities probably didn't take it into consideration. Although there could be some form of Hausmannization in Chicago or other cities once the economy picks up.

Am I too late to get your thoughts on naval warfare? Without the success of the USN blockade, it appears CSN/CSA wouldn't have developed submarines, nor scored the first sinking of a warship by one (as OTL). With a larger CSN, it would also appear convoy battles featuring steamships would happen much, much sooner than OTL, which has significant butterflies for U-boat warfare in *WW1. Also, does von Radetz recognize the impact of rifles on infantry tactics? If so, this might lead to a much earlier introduction of *tanks TTL (obviously, by another name...), which has very significant consequences to trench warfare. In fact, if von Radetz does emphasize maneuver more, it might be panzer divisions (or panzergrenadier divisions, initially) would develop before 1914.
Well, tanks and tank divisions require a lot more than just an emphasis on maneuverability. They also require the development of a reliable engine and (to an extent) the proliferation of the automobile. I imagine that von Radetz would recognize the importance of rifles and if not, the tactics of some fronts in the European Wars and the National War would show how useful rifles can be.

On naval warfare, I'm not sure how far you've read up to, but I thought I had some steamship battles in the National War and the European Wars.

Oh, really? Photos depend on the artist's choice of framing the subject, & of subject itself. There's also lighting & exposure to consider, both controlled by the artist. FYI, a lot of Matthew Brady's ACW pix, which look natural, were actually carefully posed.
Well, originally photography, while the subjects were indeed posed, was mainly utilized to depict everyday events. But the major effect of photography on art in OTL was the ability to capture an more realistic image, leaving artists in other media (mostly painters) with the freedom to experiment with style and color and such. Hence why movements like impressionism and expressionism only arose in the latter 19th century after photography had become widespread.
 
It couldn't be called a Canadian Union because IITL Acadia, Newfoundland, and Manitoba aren't "Canadian". Acadia (New Brunswick, PEI, and Nova Scotia) and Canada (Quebec) have been already made into separate dominions.

Oh, I know. That was more of a joke than anything else. Besides, I'm still hopping that the Mormons remain independent, and annex Greenland. :p

That is an interesting idea. It could also spark some other regional independence movements if California does manage to wrangle itself away from the US. That might be an interesting idea actually...

:cool:

I have plans at least for Central America. Fractious nationalism will only get you so far if you can't build a decent economy. ;)

In that case, I'll have my fingers crossed for Veracruz as a Brussels analogue!

And before I forget, congrats on 100,000 views and a 1,000 replies!!
 
Well, tanks and tank divisions require a lot more than just an emphasis on maneuverability. They also require the development of a reliable engine and (to an extent) the proliferation of the automobile. I imagine that von Radetz would recognize the importance of rifles and if not, the tactics of some fronts in the European Wars and the National War would show how useful rifles can be.
In practise, armored divisions do. The theory could derive from cavalry. Given theory & the understanding of the need for motorized armor, something like an armored division (armored cars & armored carriers) could appear as early as 1914. (The industrial capacity existed; the theory didn't yet.)
On naval warfare, I'm not sure how far you've read up to, but I thought I had some steamship battles in the National War and the European Wars.
Haven't come to it yet. I was thinking in terms of the impact on later theory & practise. OTL WW1, the Admiralty rejected convoy as impractical for steamers.:eek::confused: It would seem TTL that won't happen; that suggests Rudeltaktik arises sooner, which also suggests seaplanes, zeps, & dipping sonar (& maybe *Hedgehog) appear around TTL WW1. It might also influence the acceptance of Mahanian doctrine, if guerre de course can be shown to be effective between 1860 & 1890 [?] (when Mahan writes).
Well, originally photography, while the subjects were indeed posed, was mainly utilized to depict everyday events. But the major effect of photography on art in OTL was the ability to capture an more realistic image, leaving artists in other media (mostly painters) with the freedom to experiment with style and color and such. Hence why movements like impressionism and expressionism only arose in the latter 19th century after photography had become widespread.
I won't disagree, nor with the "inferiority complex" idea.
 
Depending on when the silver in the Sierra Nevada is found, there might be a lot of American immigration to California anyway. California will have to work hard if it wants to keep its Ibero identity intact.

Couldn't Iberos from the ex-Mexican states, which I assume is still a mess, also emigrate to California, or California promote their immigration to counter balance the Anglo immigration; the annexation of Sonora could be a part of trying to maintain the balance. California could also absorb a large portion of the Italian immigration of the late 1800s as a way to keep its latin culture. Italians (and other Southern Europeans) might choose California as their destination due to its Climate being similar to theirs.
Also besides the mormons, my guess is that the Anglos in California re doing quite well, and likely assimilating conformably to the culture, or at least to their own niche within the culture. If this is the case why would they support anything that upsets the status quo? Like American annexation?
 
Part Sixty-Two: The Postwar Recessions
Update time again. I might add a bit to the Lee's Recession part later with more details, but I'm still not entirely sure how exactly the economy would be affected.

Part Sixty-Two: The Postwar Recessions

Colorado Silver Boom:
The Colorado Gold Rush that had occurred in the early 1860s caused a boom in the territory's population, but after the National War that poulation increase was starting to die off as gold findings became less frequent. As people who had come to the territory for gold prospecting began to leave, some small mountain towns were abandoned. However, another mining boom that hit Colorado in the 1870s would bring another wave of immigration and lead to Colorado becoming a state in 1876.

One of the long term developments which aided the Colorado Silver Boom was better mining techniques such as the use of pyroglycerin in clearing mine shafts, which allowed for deeper mines in the later 19th century. However, the main cause of the boom in the short term was the Coinage Act of 1873. The Coinage Act of 1873 returned the country to primarily using gold and silver coins instead of the printed currency that was used during the National War. The increased demand for silver sparked a second rush on Colorado, although silver was already being mined in small qunatities near some cities in the mountains.

The Colorado Silver Boom was largely different from the previous gold rush because of the increased presence of railroads and larger mining companies. The Nederalnd Mining Company gained one of the largest grants for mineral rights during the Silver Boom on land in Clear Creek Canyon. Further south, railroads penetrated further into the Rocky Mountains and helped miners go further and further west. The city of South Park in the shadow of Mount Evans boomed during the 1870s because it served as a major trasnportation link on the Ferroplano, South Park, and Divide railroad which became a major connector from Ferroplano to silver mining towns like Leadville and Aspen.

The economic impact of the Colorado Silver Boom was felt all around the United States. During the 1870s, over 60 million dollars worth of silver was mined in Colorado mining districts. The increase in the supply of silver caused a rise in inflation as it was coined or brought into general circulation. In the short run, the Colorado Silver Boom contributed to the general recession in 1874 and 1875 as investment from banks leveled off from the post-National War economic boom.


Lee's Recession: The decades after the National War in the United States were a time of turbulence for the American economy. Having experienced a large state of expansion during the National War, the United States entered into a deep recession in March of 1866 as the former Confederacy began to reincorporate itself into the American economic system. This postwar recession lasted into late 1867, but picked up in time for Fremont to win reelection in 1868.

Despite a slight recession in 1870, the United States economy had expanded for the remainder of Fremont's presidency and into the beginning of Lee's administration. However, this postwar expansion could not last forever. By 1874, the economic troubles that faced Europe during and after the wars in the 1860s had arrived in the United States. This downturn was exacerbated by the Coinage Act of 1873 and the readmission of the final three former Confederate States to the Union. The Coinage Act of 1873 resumed specie payments after they were suspended during the National War. The supply of silver increased, leading to a short period of inflation and decreased economic activity.

The recession lasted into the summer of 1875 and saw a number of smaller railroads go bankrupt and be bought up by larger, more successful companies. Several shortlines were bought up by the Union Pacific Railroad including the Oregon Railroad from Langley to Vancouver and the Itasca Northern connecting Duluth, the capial of Itasca, with Minneapolis in Demoine. Lee even made a personal statement praising the expansion of Union Pacific. Lee supported the railroad because of its use of his plan for the Transcontinental Railroad and attended the final connection to the western terminus in Astoria in 1874. The recession started a major period of consolidation in the railroad and other industries that would continue through the end of the 19th century.
 
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...claiming that former slaves were not citizens of the United States and were thus eligible for slavery under the amendment. This rose to a national issue when a case was brought against the Supreme Court in 1873.
As important as this is, can you name the case? Or is this TTL's equivalent of Dred Scott v Sandford?
...after the completion of the Olympic Canal in 1903[2].... [2] Is this too early for a canal across the Olympic Peninsula? I'm not sure.
Presuming a lock system canal comparable to OTL Panama, I'd presume not. A cursory look at the geography offers several lakes that could act as links to make the job easier.
... future Supreme Court justice Wyatt Earp
While this is governed by Rule of Cool, if the Kurt Russell biopic is right, Earp was more desirous of becoming a tychoon than a Justice. Perhaps head of Union Pacific security, thus TTL's Alan Pinkerton?
 
While this is governed by Rule of Cool, if the Kurt Russell biopic is right, Earp was more desirous of becoming a tychoon than a Justice. Perhaps head of Union Pacific security, thus TTL's Alan Pinkerton?

An interesting idea but sadly not supported by the facts. He was very much a law and order type. This was instilled in him by his father (an Illinois Justice of the Peace). While he did go West to "strike it rich" he got drawn into town marshall work because he had a respect for the law that was lacking in towns like Abilene and Tombstone (the Costner flick released at the same time illustrates this very well). I don't think he would be a Pinkerton type but a local baron of some sort with cattle, mining, timber interests as well as serving as a state legislator/Congressman. From their the S.C. is possible.
 
An interesting idea but sadly not supported by the facts. He was very much a law and order type. This was instilled in him by his father (an Illinois Justice of the Peace). While he did go West to "strike it rich" he got drawn into town marshall work because he had a respect for the law that was lacking in towns like Abilene and Tombstone (the Costner flick released at the same time illustrates this very well). I don't think he would be a Pinkerton type but a local baron of some sort with cattle, mining, timber interests as well as serving as a state legislator/Congressman. From their the S.C. is possible.
:confused:While the line I've heard that 'Earp's group differed mainly from the other gangs in that his had badges' is probably unfair, he clearly tried to engage in several business (stagecoach, mines, etc.). He also rode shotgun on Wells Fargo stages, so a 'Pinkerton' like career seems plausible if he couldn't get himself elected sheriff somewhere. Even if he was the 'law and order' guy you claim (which sounds more like the legend to me than history), a Pinkeron or Pinkerton-esque career might fill that need in him.
 
:confused:While the line I've heard that 'Earp's group differed mainly from the other gangs in that his had badges' is probably unfair, he clearly tried to engage in several business (stagecoach, mines, etc.). He also rode shotgun on Wells Fargo stages, so a 'Pinkerton' like career seems plausible if he couldn't get himself elected sheriff somewhere. Even if he was the 'law and order' guy you claim (which sounds more like the legend to me than history), a Pinkeron or Pinkerton-esque career might fill that need in him.

All I did was change the scope, I think he would be a smaller scale type, a local powerbroker (Boss Hogg of Dukes of Hazard? I am having a hard time coming up with a good real-life analogy), with numerous business in towns or cities in one state but a Vanderbilt or J.J. Hill I think not. It is hard to separate the legend from fact esp. with western men. Most of the reading I have done on Earp has been more interested in perpetuating the American Cowboy myth then it has been in serious scholarship. I haven't seen any recent historical works on Western gunfighters/Lawmen. If someone would want to recommend some titles I would appreciate the PM.
 
All I did was change the scope, I think he would be a smaller scale type, a local powerbroker (Boss Hogg of Dukes of Hazard? I am having a hard time coming up with a good real-life analogy), with numerous business in towns or cities in one state but a Vanderbilt or J.J. Hill I think not. It is hard to separate the legend from fact esp. with western men. Most of the reading I have done on Earp has been more interested in perpetuating the American Cowboy myth then it has been in serious scholarship. I haven't seen any recent historical works on Western gunfighters/Lawmen. If someone would want to recommend some titles I would appreciate the PM.
My problem with this is, he never seemed to have the success alone, which is why I suggest he "rode the coattails" of a powerful organization like the railroad. IDK of he was ever a railroad guard (I have a vague recollection he was toward the end), so it may be credible. I also think the L&O streak, which seemed pretty wide, would move him away from land baron, but it's hard to know. Costner's take had him very lawful; Russell's, much more reluctant, more impatient with nonsense (which I recall Fonda's did too, tho "My Darling Clementine" has been criticized as playing really fast & loose with the facts). Has anybody got, or read, Stuart Lake's book? (Tho the Wiki entry implies it's pretty thin on truth, too...:()
 
As important as this is, can you name the case? Or is this TTL's equivalent of Dred Scott v Sandford?
I wasn't really basing it off a specific OTL case, but after the Civil War ended a lot of Southern planters tried to get around the banning of slavery by claiming the slaves weren't US citizens. In OTL this sparked the Citizenship Clause in the Fourteenth Amendment. In TTL, a former slave filed a suit that made its way to the Supreme Court.

Presuming a lock system canal comparable to OTL Panama, I'd presume not. A cursory look at the geography offers several lakes that could act as links to make the job easier.
Cool. Looking at the map of Washington again, it looks like there's a river that goes partway where I wanted to have the canal. It will probably be dammed similar to how the Chagres River was dammed during the creation of the Panama Canal.

While this is governed by Rule of Cool, if the Kurt Russell biopic is right, Earp was more desirous of becoming a tychoon than a Justice. Perhaps head of Union Pacific security, thus TTL's Alan Pinkerton?
Earp's life would probably be a lot different in TTL. For instance, his first experience as a lawman was as a constable in southwest Missouri, starting in 1868. In TTL, the area would've been a battleground in the National War and may have had a remnant militia present after the war ended. That experience could turn him into a pure law and order man after some years.
 
I wasn't really basing it off a specific OTL case, but after the Civil War ended a lot of Southern planters tried to get around the banning of slavery by claiming the slaves weren't US citizens. In OTL this sparked the Citizenship Clause in the Fourteenth Amendment. In TTL, a former slave filed a suit that made its way to the Supreme Court.
No, just meant in terms of its importance. It would be memorable even outside the legal community, just as OTL's Brown v Board is.
Earp's life would probably be a lot different in TTL. For instance, his first experience as a lawman was as a constable in southwest Missouri, starting in 1868. In TTL, the area would've been a battleground in the National War and may have had a remnant militia present after the war ended. That experience could turn him into a pure law and order man after some years.
I don't doubt it. Was it Costner's that had him a horse thief? Was he a strong Southron patriot? Just to be weird, he could end up TTL's Quantrill or a variety of Jesse James.:eek: Yeah, it's much more probable he isn't. Maybe not a judge, tho. Attorney General? Head of the Secret Service? (Bit early for FBI...) Or, to go a bit ASB again, Commissioner of Baseball? (IIRC, he was an ump for awhile...)
 
I wasn't really basing it off a specific OTL case, but after the Civil War ended a lot of Southern planters tried to get around the banning of slavery by claiming the slaves weren't US citizens. In OTL this sparked the Citizenship Clause in the Fourteenth Amendment. In TTL, a former slave filed a suit that made its way to the Supreme Court.
No, just meant in terms of its importance. It would be memorable even outside the legal community, just as OTL's Brown v Board is.
Earp's life would probably be a lot different in TTL. For instance, his first experience as a lawman was as a constable in southwest Missouri, starting in 1868. In TTL, the area would've been a battleground in the National War and may have had a remnant militia present after the war ended. That experience could turn him into a pure law and order man after some years.
I don't doubt it. Was it Costner's that had him a horse thief? Was he a strong Southron patriot? Just to be weird, he could end up TTL's Quantrill or a variety of Jesse James.:eek: Yeah, it's much more probable he isn't. Maybe not a judge, tho. Attorney General? Head of the Secret Service? (Bit early for FBI...) Or, to go a bit ASB again, Commissioner of Baseball? (IIRC, he was an ump for awhile...)
Dropping grenades from a hot air balloon can't be that damaging to a city, can it?
They wouldn't be as small as grenades, necessarily. Perhaps as much as 25pdrs.
 
No, just meant in terms of its importance. It would be memorable even outside the legal community, just as OTL's Brown v Board is.
I was thinking of coming up with a name, but it was probably going to just be something random. For now, let's say it was... Fox v. Bennett where an African-American Landon Fox filed charges against his former master Simon James Bennett for attempting to keep him in slavery unlawfully. The case went through the North Carolina state court system and Bennett appealed the ruling through the Appellate Courts to the Supreme Court.
 
And here's an update world map! Should be accurate approximately up to 1876. I may have forgotten a couple things in former Austria, but I still haven't quite decided how long it takes for the region to fully settle into its new collection of states.

World Map 1876.png
 
And here's an update world map! Should be accurate approximately up to 1876. I may have forgotten a couple things in former Austria, but I still haven't quite decided how long it takes for the region to fully settle into its new collection of states.

Woo-hoo! Long live Green Russia!
 
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