WI: Charles II of Spain Have 4 Children

[Math]

The scenario is that Carlos II is born fertile but still mentally instable like OTL. He still marries Marie Louise who survives longer, and they have 4 sons (Felipe, Carlos, Fernando and Juan) who survive childhood. What would be the consequences? Obviously there would no longer be a War of the Spanish Succession, but how would the children be raised (probably we would see a conflict between Carlos' mother and Marie Louise for the regency)?, Who would they marry? Would one of them go into the clergy? Maybe one or two will become viceroys in Italy? I mean the Spanish bastards played political and military roles during the Habsburg period, no Spanish Habsburg from Felipe II to Felipe IV had many legitimate sons.

@isabella , @Nuraghe , @Kurt_Steiner

 

[Lalli]

Probably depends how badly they are genetically screwed. But if even one of these sons are mentally in even somehow capable Carlos II might be enforced to abdicate when he comes to age.

 

[Math]

Probably depends how badly they are genetically screwed. But if even one of these sons are mentally in even somehow capable Carlos II might be enforced to abdicate when he comes to age.

Well Carlos's niece (One of Leopold's daughters ), was born minimally healthy, most likely one of the 4 children was born mentally healthy, if not all of them.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Probably depends how badly they are genetically screwed. But if even one of these sons are mentally in even somehow capable Carlos II might be enforced to abdicate when he comes to age.

given that Marie Louise would bring in some "fresh blood" (not as much as Mariana of Neuburg, but the Stuarts had no Habsburg blood pre-Charles I's kids), I suspect that the kids could be relatively "healthy".

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Obviously there would no longer be a War of the Spanish Succession, but how would the children be raised (probably we would see a conflict between Carlos' mother and Marie Louise for the regency)?, Who would they marry?

given Spanish doctors' atrocious reputation of causing queens to die childbed (even contemporaries in neighbouring commented on this) due to the habit fo sending for a priest before sending for a physician, there's no guarantee that Marie Louise would survive longer than OTL. Her mom had four kids (born alive) then died at age 26yo, her nieces both had four kids and died at age 26yo. So I wouldn't bank on her outliving Carlos. Same goes for Mariana. The woman was already in an advanced stage of cancer in the mid-1690s. However, if the son is born in- say 1680- he'd be "old enough" to take over as his dad's "carer". As in Portugal, Carlos II likely remains king until his death, but everyone knows who the real king is.

That being said...I wouldn't say there would be no war of the Spanish Succession. All of Europe basically operated on the premise that Carlos II would be unable to have children. So I would expect someone- whether it be Louis XIV or Leopold I- to call the children's legitimacy into question.

 

[Lalli]

given that Marie Louise would bring in some "fresh blood" (not as much as Mariana of Neuburg, but the Stuarts had no Habsburg blood pre-Charles I's kids), I suspect that the kids could be relatively "healthy".

Spanish Habsburgs were so badly inbred on that point that it is not certain that even new completely non-related bride would help. Sure there could be one health kid but other three ones might are still suffering from generations lasting inbreeding. And even then Spanish Habsburgs should absolutely avoid breeding with anyone who is closer than third/fourth cousin for few generations.

 

[isabella]

Spanish Habsburgs were so badly inbred on that point that it is not certain that even new completely non-related bride would help. Sure there could be one health kid but other three ones might are still suffering from generations lasting inbreeding. And even then Spanish Habsburgs should absolutely avoid breeding with anyone who is closer than third/fourth cousin for few generations.

Maria Antonia was healthy and she had a worse genetic history than Carlos II so I would say who OTL Carlo was the most unfortunate case and if he had inherited better genes his children could be healthy enough

 

[Math]

who is closer than third/fourth cousin for few generations.

Well that's difficult, there are a limited number of houses that Habsburgs can marry, Wittelsbach, Bourbon, Savoy And they did it OTL, In fact, Marie Louise's paternal grandmother was a Habsburg (Which means she was Carlos' cousin) , The rest of the Catholic houses are too lowly, and the Protestants and Original Habsburgs hate each other too much to marry each other (mostly the main Protestant houses ), Carlos' second marriage to Neuburg was the least consanguineous, but this was due to the fact that she was from a Wittelsbach Protestant branch that had recently reconverted to Catholicism..

Now moving away from the discussion of Habsburg inbreeding, what do you think the upbringing of these children would be like?

 

[Horus Lupercal]

Inbreeding isn't necessarily an checklist of if you inbred enough that you just die or are mentally ill it's just that there are higher chances for you to inherit bad genes and hereditary problem's more you inbred higher chances of dice rolling badly

 

[Kurt_Steiner]

Bearing in mind that, from the three male sons that Felipe IV had, only two survived childhood, In addition to this, surviving childhood means little. Felipe IV had two brothers who died being 25 and 32. And we can some doubts about the mental health of one of them. Charles having four strikes as demanding too much of him. Two would be enough for the job.

Let's suppose that Maria Luisa lives as longer as her sister Ana Maria and dies around 1720-1721,

So, we have one of them becoming king as Felipe V (just for the laughs). He's born around 1690-1692, so we may need a regency when Carlos II dies in 1700. No War of Succession, good enough. Keeping in mind how Felipe III and Felipe IV were, I wouldn't place too much hopes on him, but he would be better than his father, so that's even better. Would our "Felip V" be a reformer or a conservative king? Would he rule by himself or he would use the usual valido? Who wuld he marry? As usual, within the Habsburg family or they would try to find him a wife outside that circle, bearing in mind how his father resulted?

 

[isabella]

Bearing in mind that, from the three male sons that Felipe IV had, only two survived childhood, In addition to this, surviving childhood means little. Felipe IV had two brothers who died being 25 and 32. And we can some doubts about the mental health of one of them. Charles having four strikes as demanding too much of him. Two would be enough for the job.

Let's suppose that Maria Luisa lives as longer as her sister Ana Maria and dies around 1720-1721,

So, we have one of them becoming king as Felipe V (just for the laughs). He's born around 1690-1692, so we may need a regency when Carlos II dies in 1700. No War of Succession, good enough. Keeping in mind how Felipe III and Felipe IV were, I wouldn't place too much hopes on him, but he would be better than his father, so that's even better. Would our "Felip V" be a reformer or a conservative king? Would he rule by himself or he would use the usual valido? Who wuld he marry? As usual, within the Habsburg family or they would try to find him a wife outside that circle, bearing in mind how his father resulted?

If Philip V is born in that age range his choice for an Habsburg bride would be among the three younger daughters of Leopold I by Eleonore of Neuburg (Josepha born 1687, Magdalena born 1689 and Maragretha born 1690) and such match would still have a positive effect on the Spanish genetic pool

 

[ordinarylittleme]

All of Europe basically operated on the premise that Carlos II would be unable to have children. So I would expect someone- whether it be Louis XIV or Leopold I- to call the children's legitimacy into question.

OP's premise is that no one assumes this since he clearly can...

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Well that's difficult, there are a limited number of houses that Habsburgs can marry, Wittelsbach, Bourbon, Savoy And they did it OTL, In fact, Marie Louise's paternal grandmother was a Habsburg (Which means she was Carlos' cousin) , The rest of the Catholic houses are too lowly, and the Protestants and Original Habsburgs hate each other too much to marry each other (mostly the main Protestant houses ), Carlos' second marriage to Neuburg was the least consanguineous, but this was due to the fact that she was from a Wittelsbach Protestant branch that had recently reconverted to Catholicism..

Now moving away from the discussion of Habsburg inbreeding, what do you think the upbringing of these children would be like?

ironically, the Habsburg candidate available (either the OTL queen of Portugal or one of her sisters) would be comparatively unrelated (first cousin once removed) versus the Bourbon candidate (half-aunt* and too old), Savoie (first cousin), Bavaria (an alt-daughter of Carlos II's inbred niece and Max of Bavaria- descended from Henri IV and Ferdinand II, would likely be even more inbred)... maybe a princess of Lorraine (daughter of Charles V and Eleonora Maria Josepha of Austria) can survive? It'd certainly clean out the bloodlines some as well as giving claims to Mantua/Monferrato (in Italy).

Unless we get something quasi-ASB like an earlier daughter of Turkenlouis of Baden surviving, Francesco II d'Este leaving a daughter by his Farnese wife, or one of the Medici boys managing to have issue (Maria Anna of Neuburg likely winds up with either Ferdinandino de Medici or Giovan' Gastone since she's not needed in Spain, so not impossible, just...a stretch).

*I only know of three situations where the pope granted a dispensation for aunt-nephew marriages. In all three it was in...exceptional circumstances- two of which were a desire to prevent civil war (Ferrante II of Naples and José, Prince of Bragança). Liselotte Junior wouldn't have that advantage (and her mother would likely oppose the match as incestuous as well), so I don't see that the pope would grant the dispensation.

 

[Nuraghe]

Now, although many have already pointed out the various difficulties that any children of Charles II will have to face in reaching adulthood ( given the high infant mortality rate of the Spanish Habsburgs, mainly due to a terrible genetic pull, inherited from the Trastámara and the Aviz, and from a Spanish school of medicine, somewhat questionable, not to say terrible compared to their contemporary counterparts ) but overlooking this detail, we must face the fact that, although Louis and Leopold will have some grievances or claims on parts of the Spanish legacy ( mainly Netherlands and Italy ), nothing will compare to the tremendous political chaos that Spain faced between 1690 and 1714 in Otl ( including deep fractures within the court and devastating wars in its territory ) this change alone would be an important step forward for a possible recovery of the kingdom, given that it should be remembered that the main reforms of Otl Philip V were fundamentally based on two things : the centralized government style, trademark of the Bourbons and some timid institutional reforms begun under the last years of Charles II ( for precision in the colonial and economic-administrative fields ) now of course it is still probable that France will end up going to war with Madrid for mere territorial issues, and therefore it could invade Catalonia again to divert part of the limited Spanish resources in that area ( but this could paradoxically become an advantage, given that it could be an opportunity to unify the constituent kingdoms of Castile and Aragon in some areas ) to conclude it is feasible that given the number of children he had with Maria Luisa, some of them will end up serving in Italy ( as a representative of the royal power ) and obviously in the clergy ( perhaps holding a prestigious position in the local ecclesiastical hierarchy or even as prelate of the curia, similarly to Otl Henry I of Portugal ) now as regards a possible marriage match, it depends on how the butterflies will influence the rest of the continent, given that such a scenario would have important effects in the long term ( from changing the situation in England, to the dinastic succession crisis in Austria, to the last period of Sun King ' reign, passing through the political development of the Italian states ect )

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

a Spanish school of medicine, somewhat questionable

eating tortillas to cure appendicitis (à la Baltasar Carlos) probably wasn't recommended elsewhere. ISTR there was another "cure" involving freshly slaughtered (chicken, some bird) carcasses being placed on the pustules as a potential cure for smallpox. Or spring water leeches being placed in Maria Anna of Neuburg's womb to "improve chances of conception". The last may have been more common, but there were several Spanish remedies that were...deemed bizarre even by contemporaries.

 

[eliamartin65]

eating tortillas to cure appendicitis (à la Baltasar Carlos) probably wasn't recommended elsewhere. ISTR there was another "cure" involving freshly slaughtered (chicken, some bird) carcasses being placed on the pustules as a potential cure for smallpox. Or spring water leeches being placed in Maria Anna of Neuburg's womb to "improve chances of conception". The last may have been more common, but there were several Spanish remedies that were...deemed bizarre even by contemporaries.

OMG WTF?

 

[ordinarylittleme]

she had a worse genetic history than Carlos II

Marie Antoinette's genes were not that bad...

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Marie Antoinette's genes were not that bad...

Marie Antoinette's no. Maria Antonia- the one @isabella is referring to- was the product of an uncle niece marriage. Where her mother was also a niece who'd married her uncle.

 

[isabella]

Marie Antoinette's genes were not that bad...

I meant Carlos II’s niece Maria Antonia of Austria, who was the daughter of Leopold I by his first wife (and niece) Margarita Teresa of Spain (aka the full sister of Carlos II of Spain).

 

[Math]

to the dinastic succession crisis in Austria

So the Austrian succession turns into the ITTL Spanish succession war? Now would there still be a pragmatic sanction if there were male Habsburgs from the Spanish branch? Probably one of Carlos' sons would go to Austria when Carlos VI saw that he probably would not have heirs , How do the French And prussian react?