Interesting way to end the war I wonder how China will go from here.
I thought it would be a new take if China was decisively repulsed from Korea, but was able to declare it a win and for them to have a point.
My plans for China is still fuzzy and vague, but the Chinese will be a big player in the future.
I enjoy being validated.
That sounds awesome.
You actually deserve some credit for this bit of the TL; it was a comment you made a few years back about Korea that got me thinking and eventually coming up with this.
There’s probably a decent number of written languages that may end up with a Greek script ITTL. Just a few days ago I learned that some of the Greeks sent to Greece from Anatolia during the population exchange were Orthodox Christians who spoke and wrote Turkish, but in a Greek script.
Why do I get the feeling those samurai are going to be a major headache for the Spanish very soon? Maybe the fact that a bunch of them are about to be cashiered...
Ability to access eastern manpower is going to be an absolutely critical factor in the Spanish-Roman fighting coming up.
Something that just occured to me is that the update says that many remember days when China was ravaged by foreign barbarians. With how damaging this war was to the Koreans, wouldn't some people in China take notice that they're doing the thing they despise most, aka, having invaders destroy your home, to another group of people?
No, because the war was spinned as China recovering the last of its territories from foreign occupation, the invasion of Korea itself was just to stop Japanese-Korean adventurism.
That's the official line and in an age of controlled state news it's good enough for the population.
That would require some self-awareness, which is not a strong suit of many people. Furthermore, the response would most likely be that the Koreans brought it upon themselves for taking and trying to keep something, Liaodong, that didn’t belong to them.
The seeds of East Asian nationalist feuds have been sown. Heavens have mercy.
EDIT: Also that bit about the Russians makes me think that it'll be the Russians that end up taking in the Jurchens. Looks like Primorye is going to become a Ukraine of the East.
One way to really beef up the Russian Far East is for the Russians to get all of the Amur River valley, and this TL is admittedly an Orthodoxy-wank…
Excellent update! The most interesting parts of it are ;
i) The Russians are coming,
ii) More Orthodox presence in Korea
iii) The star of Leo Kalomeros is on the rise and
iv) More Japanese samurais for the Rhomans. This will be awesome!
@Basileus444 you might look at this source for the zealots of Thessalonica
https://www.academia.edu/39706487/_...ce_and_the_Transformation_of_the_Urban_Space_
Finally, concerning the name of the Pacific Ocean, I have two suggestions;
i) Ocean of the Titans
ii) Due to the many volcanoes in the area, Hephaestian Ocean.
Thanks for the suggestion and new material. I’ll have to check out the rest of the site too.
I like the ‘Titanic Ocean’ as a name for the Pacific, since it pairs well with the Atlantic.
I suspect Danjong is sharpening his sword and fuming mightily in Seoul. Mostly this means he’s probably going to build a fuckhuge analog of Hwaseong ITTL for all the good that’ll do him initially...until he realizes that the singular talent of Korean commanders is launching a military coup and the convenient fortress an hour and a half south of the capital saves his ass. And even then that’s not going to work if it’s an Orthodox Yangban in charge.
Oh and I’d wager this means the Zeng are free to send money and manpower out west to the Ottomans...which is going to piss of the Romans, who will now possibly have TWO upstart Orthodox nations conveniently placed in China’s rear. Whoops.
Yeah, Danjong is fuming, although a lot of the mess he’s in is his own fault for being such a twit, so I’m not sympathetic.
Due to geography, there’s a low limit on the amount of direct aid the Zeng can send to the Ottomans. They can’t march a 20,000 strong army to reinforce the Ottomans after all. But some trade revenue and some advisors are definitely in the cards.
Wonderful update. As for the name for the Pacific ocean how bout the Antipodean sea or Notosian sea.
Thank you.
What’s the Notosian in reference to? I haven’t heard that one before.
Well, thats a resounding defeat of the Koreans. Territory lost (if only a small amount), Jurchen control lost, and internal division. Frankly the Zeng are right to consider this a great victory, as given a decade they could wander into a divided Korea.
Though again, the naval surrender essentially means that China is contained. I'm curious to see how Indonesia turns out because really the only region that has the population and strategic situation to rival China will be a unified Indonesia - if that turns out to be Rhomania-in-the-East then even the Zeng as they are now are at risk of being overtaken as the regional leader. I wonder if a victorious Rhomania-in-the-East might encourage the beginning of a similar system of tributary relationships with Indochina.
I'm going to very curious as to the long term balance of power in Asia - we have Russia, Zeng China, Japan, Korea, India Potentially Indonesia, with the big two/three being Vijayanagar, Zeng China and potentially Indonesia.
I wonder if we'll see the Jurchen organise themselves, it'd be cool to see a sort of Cossacks-of-the-East with Jurchen effectively being the real authorities across the Steppe.
The war’s end turned out to be more pro-China then in my original draft. There is still an element of declaring victory and then going home, but it’s still a big victory, albeit not as big as had originally hoped.
Indonesia in the pre-modern era is nowhere even close to being able to match China population-wise. Its high population OTL is entirely a product of the 20th century. At this time IOTL and ITTL, Indonesia+ Indochina + Philippines has a population comparable to geographical France. It’s surprisingly low.
This sounds familiar, but I can't place where I first heard it from...
It’s adapted from a quote attributed to Mustafa Kemal to his troops at Gallipoli.
Wonderful update, on par with this timeline's usual high standard of quality. Always great to read about times and places I don't know a ton about.
Keep up the excellent work!
Thanks. Writing this TL has been a way to encourage me to research areas about which beforehand I knew little. An OOC reason for which Indonesia gets so much screen time is because I find early modern Indonesia to be really interesting.
To be honest, it all depends on the quality and speed which a government sets up a public education system. If Rhomaion can set up a system in the vein of Massachusetts or Scotland's public schools which began in early IOTL 17th century, it could go either way. The British had a near total dependence on missionary schools and the church in providing education, but imagine how much Singapore and Malaysia scores could have improved if the British left them a solid foundation. It has even reached an extent where English has become the first language for many of them, replacing their own mother tongue. Of course, this is all assuming economic activities become more and more automated, freeing up children for school in the first place.
How fares the tea trade compared to OTL? And while we're on the question of trade, is the Triangle Trade much more active ITTL?
I'm curious how Manchuria will develop if Han immigration was not restricted like the Qing did IOTL. A richer and more populated area that perhaps ensures Outer and Inner Manchuria remains united?
Yeah, if the Romans went on an all-out public schooling phase that would make a big difference, although at this point they wouldn’t have much incentive. They want mid-level administrators who speak Greek, but so long as the peasants, the vast majority of the populace, deliver tribute on time the Romans don’t care. Meanwhile missionary efforts run on the premise of translating Christian texts into native tongues, on the grounds that prospective converts are much more likely to pay attention if they hear it in their own language.
Tea trade is starting to pick up, although at this point IOTL it was pretty small, nothing like its late eighteenth and nineteenth century levels. Triangle trade is comparable to OTL.
I don’t see much difference for Manchuria. The Jurchen lands aren’t a part of the same polity like OTL under the Qing, and right now Luoyang wants people to repopulate districts in China proper ruined by all the fighting. Any Chinese trying to get to Manchuria would be stopped if at all possible.
I think the point is that even today a Sino-Indian conflict over the Tibetan Plateau would be a nightmare. Trying that before industrialization is likely to be next to impossible so while theoretically neighbors an united India and China would effectively be unable to harm each other directly. Of course proxy wars between vassals in Southeast or Central Asia could happen.
Yeah, based on the geography I don’t see even a united India and China coming directly to blows, maybe just poking each other along the periphery through vassals.
And at this point ITTL, if Oudh decided for some reason to take on China, the only thing keeping them from getting stabbed by Vijayanagar would be if their entire court asphyxiated from cackling too long.
Fantastic update here's the updated map for 1638!
Ooh boy I've always been a fan of Russian Manchuria! Hopefully they'll treat the locals somewhat well and integrate them into Russian culture if possible
Thank you.
Hopfully we'll see what the final peace treaty in Italy looks like soon
Well there is the Spanish Indonesian Campaign first and its conclusion, depending on how fast it is resolved and how the war in Italy goes it may end up being included in that treaty as Spain and Arles are likely to be included in the parties. That or this ends up getting the whole German/Lothriginia-Triune conflict also included and it becomes a very sweeping set of treaties like the Seven Years War.
I decided I wanted to tie up the east before I went back west. There’s going to be enough to juggle over there without leaving this hanging. Plus since one of the short-term consequences of the Korean war is sucking away a lot of Roman resources at the same time the Spanish expedition arrives, narrative flow makes sense to have the one follow the other.
I'm not at all informed on Religous stuff but im curious as to how the TTL Orthidox church differs from Otl in Theology
If nothing else it is likely more liberal and progressive in the sense that they are willing to look and change things, at least interpretations, than OTL. This is because they are a growing church rather than one mostly under foreign occupation, except for one particularly conservative nation, and fighting not to disappear. Any religion that is growing and spreading like the Orthodox church is now will always be a bit more dynamic than one that is not, especially sense there is no official head of the Orthodox church, the Patriarch of Constantinople being marginally more equal than the others by dint of Rhomania's, and her capital's, might and influence than any institutional belief in such.
I deliberately stay away from theology when I can get away with it. My Southern Baptist has made me rather allergic to Christian theology, because the type I’m used to is used to justify all sorts of very questionable things. Plus Orthodoxy is different from the type of Christianity I’m used to, so it’s really easy for me to split up and say something that’s flat wrong (it’s happened at least a couple of times already).
Having said all that, pretty much what Cryostorm said.
I can't remember, was there a peace treaty with HRE? I need to re-read war updates.
Between Rhomania and the HRE, yes. Check the ‘1635: The Taste of Ash’ update.
Do you guys think Rhomania could become more accepting of homosexuality before the latins?
Does orthodoxy accept such a thing? Im not sure since I don't know what their stance is but I'm guessing not since it will probably be condemned. I think it's a detriment to making multiple families but who knows, this problem will probably be for the three centuries for Rome. Until then unless it becomes a problem it wont be noticed by the government.
People actually caring about homosexuality is a relatively modern invention. In the medieval and early-modern period it was lumped together with all other perceived forms of sexual deviance. No institutions exist to actively harm the behaviour but it would be seen culturally as wrong. The inquisition is the only real organization of the period that had any real care set for rooting it out plus they didn't even exist in most countries and even then only for a short time. Some laws were past in the 14th century and renaissance but actual enforcement wasn't really feasible. No one went door to door patrolling the streets for sodomy.
During the Georgian Era sexuality was commonplace, open, and an accepted facet of everyday life in response to puritanism of the previous century. All the famous mistresses from that period are a testament to the openness with which sex was perceived in Europe. It was wild century and in response to that is when Victorian prudishness appears and modern attitudes of tight control over sex and sexuality became commonplace. More active policing and greater powers of the state made sodomy laws actually enforced for the perceived public good.
ITTL B444 has previously stated that the Rhomans maintain some level of imperial Roman laws and customs related to homosexuality. For example, two openly gay characters appeared, one Rhoman and one Arletian but for the life of me I cannot remember who they were or when they showed up ITTL. The only scandalous element was whether or not someone was 'on top' so to say. In Roman law it was permissible for a male of high status to have homosexual relationships but only if he took the active role and only if it was to a male of lower social standing. We often call this pederasty, and that is certainly where it was more commonplace, but it did not need to include youngsters. This sort of attitude seems to have been at least somewhat preserved ITTL Rhomania, or maybe brought back depending on how B444's chronology works.
Whether this sort of limited acceptance of homosexuality remains over the centuries is a very different sort of question without an easy answer. Mass cultural changes are often incredibly slow and if OTL shows us anything on the front of sexuality in Europe it's that it can change into really strange forms at the drop of a hat as the youth rebel against the attitudes of their fore-bearers.
I remember back in a college course talking about European views on sexuality in the early modern period. Assuming I remember correctly (I may still have notes around, but don’t feel like taking the time to go searching) they viewed sexuality more as a spectrum rather than the modern and often binary approach.
People were described as having varying levels of ‘heat’, with more heat being better and more active. Men had a higher average heat than women, but there was a range with some men being cooler than others. Women too had a range, and some women could have a higher natural heat than men, and women could have a heat as high as hot men, and these were known as viragos. Furthermore a person’s natural heat could vary based on diet, environment, and health.
This tied in with the four humors. People who had more of a certain humor would be more inclined to certain personality characteristics, and people with more of a cool humor such as phlegm as opposed to blood would have a lower natural heat.
Furthermore there was more emphasis on being the active partner, being on top. In a way, a man topping another man was, on the part of the active partner, was the best way of showing one’s virility, as it was showing dominance over someone who had a higher natural heat already. Whereas in contrast, being known for having sex with a woman but with her on top, would be a social disaster for the man. This is the complete opposite of what one would expect looking solely through a straight/homosexual mentality.
(As an aside, there was one theologian, although I’d have to look him up, who argued that the sin that caused God to send the flood of Noah was that he looked down from heaven and saw a woman and man having intercourse and the woman was on top.)
So in short, it’s complicated. And frankly, if we’re being honest, if you remove the women having a lower natural heat and the focus on who’s on top, I feel that this is a better way of viewing sexuality. It recognizes it as a spectrum rather than distinct and separate blocks, and recognizes that a person can vary based on environmental and personal factors, rather than being locked into one set. I’m hoping ITTL to have a revised version of this being the dominant view of sexuality going into the present day.
I realize this was a longer response than usual, but I remember finding this alternate viewpoint very fascinating when I first heard of it.
While orthodoxy is on the rise in Korea, whats its status in china, is there ever any significant missionary activity there?
Or could this hostility with japan and Rhomania leads to intense hostility to Orthodoxy? Does this means an chinese alliance with other significant sea power in the region as they have conceded the sea?
The only reason for the rise in Korea, per the last update, is colonization of vacant land and appreciation for the help provided by the Orthodox world to Korea. Before then it was just merchant communities.
China would most likely be like pre-war Korea, merchant communities of Christians and that's about it if that. The Chinese go to Pyrgos to trade, not the other way around, so I doubt the existence of Christian entry into China unless some Chinese merchants converted to get better deals in Pyrgos. But that sort of relationship isn't going to get churches built in China.
The Chinese will probably treat Orthodoxy like any other barbarian religions, like Catholicism, Judaism, and Islam. It'll get accepted and tolerated, right up until it starts preaching against critical facets of Chinese culture, like ancestor worship. Given Roman-Chinese animosity TTL, it might be the Catholics who conform to Chinese sensibilities to make themselves the preeminent Christianity sect in China.
That's assuming that the Chinese bother to recognize the difference between the sects of course.
I SERIOUSLY doubt this happens. Making nuanced distinctions between the cultures and beliefs barbarian peoples has no place in the Chinese national mindset. Especially during a expansionist period like we’re looking at here. “Sinicize or genocide” is the watchword for Chinese foreign policy ATM ITTL.
Orthodoxy is a non-entity in China. It’s viewed as a barbarian un-Chinese belief and has no attraction for the mandarin class. And any merchants that decided to convert for better deals in Pyrgos would be getting, at best, a serious side-eye from officials when they returned to China. And it is extremely doubtful that the Chinese know or care about the differences between the various Christian sects, until and unless they find a way to use those to play one barbarian off another.
That said, Christianity may become more of a thing in China in the future. OOC, this is because I’m interested in having an alt-Taiping, because the sheer ‘WTH factor’ of the OTL amuses me.
