Tasman & crew land somewhere in Aotearoa in 1642 that isn't in the midst of tribal war, spend more time there & some of them stay?
Would these alternate colonizations be possible?
- Thread starter Starforce
- Start date
Well, *Italy and *Germany in South America do have some tiny chances, although one needs a lot of luck. Klein Venedig was in Venezuela, true, but it was a thing- for a short while. The Granduchy of Tuscany did try in modern-day French Guyana. Admittedly, the chances of a successful Thornton expedition were limited from the start, but it could last longer and then being inherited from whatever *Italy emerges (should the Peninsula unify in such a scenario).
This is actually possible as Brazil has regions that speak Venetian.
In any Confederate victory scenario (granted this is moderately difficult but not impossible to accomplish) a lesser talked about consequence of this is that it effectively makes the United States incapable of enforcing the Monroe Doctrine, so German and Italian colonies in South America are entirely viabable in such a scenario.
Last edited:
A FRENCH SOUTH ISLAND (of New Zealand) Is possible!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akaroa#French_settlement
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanto-Bordelaise_Company
In the Year 1838, a mere 2 years before the Treaty of Waitangi (1840), the French actually set up a colony in the South island Of NEW ZEALAND. Infact the Reason the English Set up the Treaty is to pervent the Loss of portions of New Zealand to the French! All you need to do for the POD, is to have the Treaty to backfire quickly, and not get off the ground.
en.wikipedia.org
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akaroa#French_settlement
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanto-Bordelaise_Company
In the Year 1838, a mere 2 years before the Treaty of Waitangi (1840), the French actually set up a colony in the South island Of NEW ZEALAND. Infact the Reason the English Set up the Treaty is to pervent the Loss of portions of New Zealand to the French! All you need to do for the POD, is to have the Treaty to backfire quickly, and not get off the ground.
Treaty of Waitangi - Wikipedia
A third possibility is an Italian/Genoese "Klein-Venedig".
Just like the owner of Klein-Venedig, Genoese bankers were important creditors of the Spanish kings, though the Genoese would have probably more success in the colony business than the German Welsers.
Starforce
Banned
So far from what I gathered, a Tuscany colony in French Guiana, a British Southern Cone, and a French southern island of New Zealand are likely.
The more unlikely ones are the German Venezuela, French Mexico, and such.
What would be the first alternate colonization that would occur here? Would it be possible for many of these to occur in a Confederate Victory scenario?
The more unlikely ones are the German Venezuela, French Mexico, and such.
What would be the first alternate colonization that would occur here? Would it be possible for many of these to occur in a Confederate Victory scenario?
A question: what do you mean by the Southern Cone? Because that term usually refers to the whole of Argentina, Chile, and Uruguay, but this phrasing suggests that you're confusing it with Patagonia, a much smaller region in southern Chile and Argentina, and the sort of POD you'd need for Britain to colonize the former is different from if you just want the latter.
A Civil War-era POD is too late for any of the alternate colonizations outside of Africa--by then, the Americas are all firmly claimed either by other European powers or by independent states that it is easier to puppetize than colonize directly and New Zealand and Australia are firmly in Britain's pocket. And even then, only an increased Portuguese and German presence in Africa seems particularly likely to me--I can't think of a reason why Sweden would want any African colonies or why Denmark would want to go back to Africa after its sale of the Danish Gold Coast to Britain in 1850.
Starforce
Banned
I generally see the Southern Cone and Patagonia as exclusive. What is the greatest extent Britain could colonize in South America?
And for a civil war, I'm thinking it occurs the same time in our timeline but these alternate colonizations. ave already occurred and the CSA being a thing distracts the USA from interfering in these alternate colonizations.
I don't understand what you mean by this.
I don't understand the logic here. If the US is going to prevent colonization efforts, it's going to be doing so at the time of initial colonization, not decades or even centuries later when those colonies have already become well established.
Starforce
Banned
The Southern Cone and Patagonia is the same thing to me, personally. I understand if this is flawed but its just how I see it.
For the US thing, I'm saying that by the time the US becomes independent these colonies would have been fully fledgling and not initially colonized (Some of them that is). While they may initially stop some colonization efforts and deter them, once the CSA wins they will be in no position to do so anymore.
Have Cortez find the gold in Georgia and the Spanish concentration North leaving the Southern part of South America
I mean, okay, but that's just not what people mean by Southern Cone. Like, you do you, I guess, but you're going to create confusion if you use the term to mean something completely different from what everyone else uses it for.
(Relatedly, saying two things are exclusive does not mean that they are the same thing, and the closest usage to that which I've seen, calling two things mutually exclusive, means the opposite of that, hence my confusion.)
I just don't understand why you think Europe would be interested in actual, direct (re)colonization of Latin America as opposed to just having spheres of influence and puppet states, which during the mid-to-late 19th century was the objective of both the US and the European powers whose influence it was trying to keep out. Even the biggest, most brazen violation of the Monroe Doctrine during the time period in question IOTL, the French intervention in Mexico, only sought to replace Mexico's government with a more compliant one, it wasn't trying to actually claim the place for France.
With a POD early enough everything is possible. But a Dutch Mexico is hard with any POD after the discovery of the Americas. The Netherlands did not exist at the time (although the process of unification was already in progress) and when the Netherlands became independent Spain wasalready too strongly entrenched. Also, there is not enough reason for the Dutch to go for Mexico. What do they have to gain that they aren't able to get somewhere else that is easier. Dutch Australia is possible, but not the entire continent. The Netherlands is too small for that. The problem though is that OTL the Dutch did not care for settler colonies. So you need a bit of a mental switch and Western Australia was very close to the trading routes the Dutch used to get to Indonesia, which is why the Dutch actualy discovered Australia. The Dutch could set up a waystation in Australia for supplies. Dutch New Zealand is harder, since it iis too far out of the way of everything. The best case for a Dutch New Zealand, is that when the Dutch discover New Zealand they find something valuable on the islands and decide to stay to trade for it. I am not sure if there is anything valuable enough on the islands. Also if the decline of the Netherlands in the 18th and 19th century is avoided, maybe the Netherlands could simply claim the islands in the age of nationalism and colonise it.
If someone other than the Burgundians unify the Netherlands(including Flanders) and ends up participating in the early maritime exploration with the Portuguese(maybe even seizing the Azores for themselves) a Dutch Mexico is possible.
True, with an early enough POD everything is possible. We could see Bohemian or Andorran colonies with a POD early enough.
Not sure if it's comparable, you could achieve a Dutch presence with a post black death POD, but Andorra? Bohemia could colonize indirectly through other HRE nations or like the Welser tried with Spain.