I think it was mostly nobility that fled Wu as it was collapsing. That and the fact that the Wu felt that their Dynasty should be in charge.
An Age of Miracles Continues: The Empire of Rhomania
- Thread starter Basileus444
- Start date
@Basileus444 I wonder if the Romans are aware of the role that the Greeks had in the history of India and in the spread of Buddhism. Check this wonderful video, it is quite telling, especially after 4:24
Considering its legacy, there is part of me that thinks that Rhomania would be represented by multiple figures throughout history. Sometimes back-to-back with each other (especially in reference to the Despotates, and the East-West divisions), but certainly with figures passing on the regalia.
So yeah, less the person, but A Person with the Regalia. At the moment? A musketeer with the Imperial Eagle comes to mind, weapon overhead, but eagle always higher. Probably handed the eagle from a Kataphrachtoi.
How are the Zeng tracking compared to the Qing?
Sure China may be still powerful but are they as advanced as the European powers?
Given the Zeng are even more xenophobic it won’t surprise me if tech advances filter into the Middle Kingdom even more slowly.
What if next century the Romans rock up with a steam gunboat armada, armed with rifles and the Zeng resistance have matchlocks?
Sure China may be still powerful but are they as advanced as the European powers?
Given the Zeng are even more xenophobic it won’t surprise me if tech advances filter into the Middle Kingdom even more slowly.
What if next century the Romans rock up with a steam gunboat armada, armed with rifles and the Zeng resistance have matchlocks?
So a potential Opium war but much earlier then? The chances of that happening are very slim I know, but imagine the possibilities, especially with a much older Leo Kalameros serving as Admiral or Commodore
Little known fact - there's actually a portrait of that young woman in the White Palace that slowly ages as she keeps looking the same.
Evilprodigy
Donor
B444 isn't a cartographer. Most of his recent maps were made by others. The east is a big place, it'd be a lot of work to fully map it all out.
Ah, you meant Leo Kalomeros.
Who knows, maybe he'll find his glory in the War of Wratth.
Wait so did I hallucinate there being a guy named Napoleon in this tl? 0_0
I believe there was a Napoleon, but our Napoleon was born under a different name. And yes, went into the Navy (unless I misremember).
Young Leo Kalomeros was born on the docks of Alexandria as Napoleon Bonaparte before changing his name to something more Roman.
It's interesting this is being discussed given the recently released Patreon update. I'm hoping that after the Roman minority updates attention turns to the theater that Kalomeros is heading to.
It's interesting this is being discussed given the recently released Patreon update. I'm hoping that after the Roman minority updates attention turns to the theater that Kalomeros is heading to.
@Christian: I don’t remember who, but way back a reader called Rhomania the ‘Old Man of Europe’, which seems like a good fit. Still around and kicking, but not on the same level as the younger generation of states.
@Frame: Thank you very much.
I’m glad you enjoy it. Hope things get better for you.
Herakleian Islands are OTL Philippines, although at this point ITTL that name doesn’t actually exist. I’ve used the term in response posts, but never gotten around to naming them officially in the TL proper. It is on my to-do list.
Leo Kalomeros/Napoleon is currently in the process of being transferred over to Island Asia. At this stage he’s still a junior officer, albeit a distinguished one, but he’ll be getting gradually more important in the next few decades.
@Cryostorm: You never know exactly what she’s hiding in her basement…
@Execubitor168: She’s tougher than she looks, if nothing else.
@Grammar Kaiser: Like with the history book sections, I’ve never said who the source/narrator of the narrative sections is either. I’ve sometimes thought about specifying that, but decided not to. I like keeping the mystery alive.
@TheWanderingReader: At the same time, Russia, Georgia, and Vlachia sometimes find Rhomania to be a little too paternalistic in the patronizing sort of way.
The Romans showed up on ships coming from the south like the natives of Southeast Asia, rather than overland like the Han expeditions that discovered Da Qin in the first place. Plus the Romans showed up during the time of the wokou and soon joined forces with them, so it’s not surprising that the Chinese shoved them into the barbarian category. Plus the Chinese have another 1000+ years of saying they’re the center of world compared to the times of the Han.
It won’t be happening that quickly, but I think China is going to get a rude awakening once the barbarians show up with early steamships and rifles. But that doesn’t mean it has to go as badly for China as it did IOTL. I sometimes wonder what would’ve happened if Europeans had shown up with steamships and rifles, with a similar tech edge to OTL, but facing a dynasty that wasn’t already approaching its best-by date anyway.
@Βοανηργές: There have been some gestures of goodwill, mainly in the vein of promising not to publicly condemn the errors of the others, and giving the Egyptians and Ethiopians preferential access to the Holy Sepulcher after the Orthodox. But there hasn’t been much done officially. The schism is over a thousand years old at this point and all it takes is a few hard-liners on both sides, and they are available, to mess things up for everybody.
They aren’t distinctive on the ground, but I wanted to showcase that there are populations in Rhomania-in-the-East from both sources.
@Aristomenes: That was a good video. I wasn’t aware of this channel under HanEmpire posted that earlier video, but I’m liking what I’ve seen so far. At this point ITTL the Romans aren’t well aware of that history as it’s off the beaten track of the usual narratives. However as the Romans are in India longer, they are getting more interested in its history and so aspects like these will get their attention.
@RogueTraderEnthusiast: So Rhomania is a Time Lord? It transforms into a new character with a somewhat different personality, but with all of the memories and the same underlying character. I could get behind that idea.
@ImperatorAlexander: The Zeng aren’t as big and powerful as the Qing; they lack the western territories they conquered and their population base is smaller, unsurprisingly since it’s earlier in time.
The Zeng are of course much bigger than any European power. In terms of non-military aspects, the Zeng are still their equals; IOTL it wasn’t until the early 1800s that Europeans shot ahead of the rest of the world in that aspect. In terms of military tech though the west is pulling ahead with the widespread use of flintlocks while most other people, including the Chinese, are still using matchlocks. IOTL there were still matchlocks being used during the Taiping civil war!
The Zeng look down on outsiders as barbarians (OTL Chinese attitude) but they’re still willing to trade with them (also OTL Chinese attitude), so some ideas might filter into China. But the fact that IOTL the Chinese were still using matchlocks a century and a half after Europe dropped them isn’t encouraging.
@Curtain Jerker: That’s the real POD. IOTL it was destroyed in 1204 during the sack of Constantinople. ITTL Theodoros I Laskaris successfully smuggled it out of the city in 1203.
@CV12Hornet: I make no promises. I understand their usefulness but good maps are dependent on being made by someone that’s not me.
@Evilprodigy: Yup. And all the good ones share the commonality of having been made by someone that’s not me.
@timmy_khagann: He’ll find his glory, that’s for sure.
@Shard: Leo Kalomeros was born as Napoleon Bonaparte, although he’s obviously not the OTL Napoleon Bonaparte. But I didn’t see any reason why the same culture couldn’t produce somebody with the same name and it certainly gets people’s attentions in the way a random Greek name does.
@Frame: Thank you very much.
I’m glad you enjoy it. Hope things get better for you. Herakleian Islands are OTL Philippines, although at this point ITTL that name doesn’t actually exist. I’ve used the term in response posts, but never gotten around to naming them officially in the TL proper. It is on my to-do list.
Leo Kalomeros/Napoleon is currently in the process of being transferred over to Island Asia. At this stage he’s still a junior officer, albeit a distinguished one, but he’ll be getting gradually more important in the next few decades.
@Cryostorm: You never know exactly what she’s hiding in her basement…
@Execubitor168: She’s tougher than she looks, if nothing else.
@Grammar Kaiser: Like with the history book sections, I’ve never said who the source/narrator of the narrative sections is either. I’ve sometimes thought about specifying that, but decided not to. I like keeping the mystery alive.
@TheWanderingReader: At the same time, Russia, Georgia, and Vlachia sometimes find Rhomania to be a little too paternalistic in the patronizing sort of way.
The Romans showed up on ships coming from the south like the natives of Southeast Asia, rather than overland like the Han expeditions that discovered Da Qin in the first place. Plus the Romans showed up during the time of the wokou and soon joined forces with them, so it’s not surprising that the Chinese shoved them into the barbarian category. Plus the Chinese have another 1000+ years of saying they’re the center of world compared to the times of the Han.
It won’t be happening that quickly, but I think China is going to get a rude awakening once the barbarians show up with early steamships and rifles. But that doesn’t mean it has to go as badly for China as it did IOTL. I sometimes wonder what would’ve happened if Europeans had shown up with steamships and rifles, with a similar tech edge to OTL, but facing a dynasty that wasn’t already approaching its best-by date anyway.
@Βοανηργές: There have been some gestures of goodwill, mainly in the vein of promising not to publicly condemn the errors of the others, and giving the Egyptians and Ethiopians preferential access to the Holy Sepulcher after the Orthodox. But there hasn’t been much done officially. The schism is over a thousand years old at this point and all it takes is a few hard-liners on both sides, and they are available, to mess things up for everybody.
They aren’t distinctive on the ground, but I wanted to showcase that there are populations in Rhomania-in-the-East from both sources.
@Aristomenes: That was a good video. I wasn’t aware of this channel under HanEmpire posted that earlier video, but I’m liking what I’ve seen so far. At this point ITTL the Romans aren’t well aware of that history as it’s off the beaten track of the usual narratives. However as the Romans are in India longer, they are getting more interested in its history and so aspects like these will get their attention.
@RogueTraderEnthusiast: So Rhomania is a Time Lord? It transforms into a new character with a somewhat different personality, but with all of the memories and the same underlying character. I could get behind that idea.
@ImperatorAlexander: The Zeng aren’t as big and powerful as the Qing; they lack the western territories they conquered and their population base is smaller, unsurprisingly since it’s earlier in time.
The Zeng are of course much bigger than any European power. In terms of non-military aspects, the Zeng are still their equals; IOTL it wasn’t until the early 1800s that Europeans shot ahead of the rest of the world in that aspect. In terms of military tech though the west is pulling ahead with the widespread use of flintlocks while most other people, including the Chinese, are still using matchlocks. IOTL there were still matchlocks being used during the Taiping civil war!
The Zeng look down on outsiders as barbarians (OTL Chinese attitude) but they’re still willing to trade with them (also OTL Chinese attitude), so some ideas might filter into China. But the fact that IOTL the Chinese were still using matchlocks a century and a half after Europe dropped them isn’t encouraging.
@Curtain Jerker: That’s the real POD. IOTL it was destroyed in 1204 during the sack of Constantinople. ITTL Theodoros I Laskaris successfully smuggled it out of the city in 1203.
@CV12Hornet: I make no promises. I understand their usefulness but good maps are dependent on being made by someone that’s not me.
@Evilprodigy: Yup. And all the good ones share the commonality of having been made by someone that’s not me.
@timmy_khagann: He’ll find his glory, that’s for sure.
@Shard: Leo Kalomeros was born as Napoleon Bonaparte, although he’s obviously not the OTL Napoleon Bonaparte. But I didn’t see any reason why the same culture couldn’t produce somebody with the same name and it certainly gets people’s attentions in the way a random Greek name does.
Well, kinda sad that China probably won't keep parity with the Europeans, why exactly is that? Is it because they are so closed off from the world?
Oh, and @Basileus444, the one who called Rhomania the Old Man of Europe was @Elfwine, right here on the second to the last comment: https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...cles-the-revival-of-rhomanion.217912/page-283
Oh, and @Basileus444, the one who called Rhomania the Old Man of Europe was @Elfwine, right here on the second to the last comment: https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...cles-the-revival-of-rhomanion.217912/page-283
I'm loving that image. It'd make a great bit of in-universe sci-fi/fantasy to have a character like that, with a low-key implication that they were Andreas Niketas for the fanboys.
That's a point actually, Obviously Niketas is a huge figure for the Romans atm, but who're the most applauded Roman Emperors at this point? There has to be a top 5/10 culturally.
If you count post POD Emperors it's probably 1. Andreas I, 2. Theodoros II, 3. Demetrios I, after that it's a bit more hazy, perhaps 4. Andreas II, 5. One of the other Laskarid Emperors?
Of course there's also pre-POD Emperors like Basil II, Justinian and Alexios I, but those are from another phase of the Empire. In OTL the Macedonians and Komnenoi are obviously the most famous dynasties but TTL are far out shined by the Laskarids and 2nd Komnenoi (hopefully soon the Sideroi too).
Odd question but how is Manuel I viewed TTL? Given how ingrained the sack of Constantinople is on the Roman psyche it'd be interesting to hear how the man who arguably began that descent is viewed.
China had little incentive to innovate new military technologies aside from the periodic times of civil war or barbarian invasions. So weapon tech advancements were sporadic and ill applied unless specifically pushed for by the central government. That wasn't done often since those same officials were either supremely secure (and thus saw little need) or extremely corrupt (in which case nothing got done). Why rock the boat when the older ways always got the job done?