Very true. That's pretty much what bit Michael Laskaris/Nikolaios Mouzalon in the ass to start this whole adventure in the first place.
An Age of Miracles Continues: The Empire of Rhomania
- Thread starter Basileus444
- Start date
Very true. That's pretty much what bit Michael Laskaris/Nikolaios Mouzalon in the ass to start this whole adventure in the first place.
I think that this Blütcher is thankfully not that Blucher (if that makes sense). Inspired maybe.
Probably, TTL Blütcher passing before the battle comes, which would see what is left of the German forces melt pretty quickly once the Rhomans show their mettle. The Poles however are screwed, and I can see a certain charismatic Archduke leaving the field a lot richer, even after losing and being captured. While I was being funny about the Theodor losing his mind to a cannon ball, Blütcher dying, his forces withering/running, and his dream of reuniting the Crowns of Rome very easily be what sends him in the deep end. That is IF the curse D3 drunkly placed on him was any kind of foreshadowing.
Privately, I'd hope Theodor make it back to Munich and see how he was played by Henry. A big scene where he argues with Elizabeth who finally has had it and slaps him with the facts on the ground of how the Tribune's are tearing the German Empire apart from the inside. He could expel all Triune merchants, and set the stage where the two top economies in northern Europe have daggers in the eyes for eachother. Nothing gets a spoiled brats nose out of shape than being treated like everyone else. And Theodor strikes me a bad loser, and even worse when he realizes the extent his "partner" was doing business with him in bad faith.
That leaves Vauban. Where is he btw, is he at Thessaloniki? Regardless the Triune artillery train needs to be captured/killed destroyed, they have the experience of fighting the only other army that can match them pound for pound when it come to quality and quantity. The officer academy in Kings Landing cannot gain that knowledge. Imo.
I won't lie, I really want to see Blutcher survive, he's a good man and it'd break my heart to see him go.
I do like the scenario you've put forward, especially if we see the Roman Empire captured the entire Allied artillery train, and maybe turning a few of the more low-rank officers in charge of it. Turning that against the Allies, and heck, maybe even the Triunes in time would be poetic.
Well...to quote Wade Barrett: "I'm afraid I got some bad news!"
As always, card subject to change.
So I'll throw a crazy idea out there, adding another reason why D3 is known as "The Forgotten" on-top of Ody going Ultimate Warrior. What he abdicates after his reforms are started fully, and key policies set in motion?
As well publishers are terrified of writing anything about him, because if his crack down on the press.
Just a thought.
As well publishers are terrified of writing anything about him, because if his crack down on the press.
Just a thought.
You know what would be really cool? If the Sideroi are the final Imperial dynasty of the Roman empire, right up until present day.
It'd be really powerful from a narrative perspective. Timur has always been a measuring stick of conquest and violence for the Roman identity and having them emerge triumphant with the antithesis of Timur as Emperor from this succession war would send a big message.
That, and the Drakids were just a big let down. I get that peace and prosperity is great, but it's not as exciting.
It'd be really powerful from a narrative perspective. Timur has always been a measuring stick of conquest and violence for the Roman identity and having them emerge triumphant with the antithesis of Timur as Emperor from this succession war would send a big message.
That, and the Drakids were just a big let down. I get that peace and prosperity is great, but it's not as exciting.
I can see D3 giving up the throne. He doesn't seem particularly happy. Once the war ends I can see him retiring to an estate to spend the rest of his days writing.
I really think the Sideroi dynasty is the one that now rules Rome into the modern day. I see parallels between them and Englands glorious revolution in 1688. Aside from being in relatively the same time period (only 60 years earlier) its also a relative outsider that comes in to prevent civil unrest. The mechanisms used to gain that power are very different of course; parliament inviting William III vs Demetrios III making a bargain with the "best" heir; but both lead the a fundamental change in the state. In England it solidified the supremacy of parliament. In Rome it has accelerated the transition from warlord state to modern nation state.
Fingers crossed and hoping for a Rhoman-Japanese dynasty. Don't forget about lil Kalomeros and his lofty ambitions too!
Have we seen any evidence that he's as ambitious as his namesake?
@TheCataphract: That’s Demetrios’ thinking as well.
@Praetor98: Yeah, the ‘eastern question’ will be something Rhomania will also have to deal with. But regarding the west, this is a unique opportunity.
@Rui: Tactics will be a bit more sophisticated, but that is the cliff notes version
@HanEmpire: Not much, but Mecca is still the destination of the hajj. It’s not about the sight-seeing, but the act of devotion that the pilgrimage represents that is really important.
Those names are right; the Egyptian name is in Coptic form.
The Ottomans, in the long-term, I don’t see as being able to staying level with the Romans. Demographics and geography are against them, as you pointed out. I think though they can still be a big player, capable of keeping the Romans on their toes even if in a one-on-one contest they’d lose. Think Rhomania=1914 Germany and Ottomans=1914 France.
The Sikhs are rising, but they’re not at ‘powerful Sikh Empire’ just yet.
@RogueTraderEnthusiast: Well, there’s only so big a wooden fleet a country can build, and Rhomania’s not the best situated for naval supplies. The Romans have a big merchant marine and war fleet, but this task was of such magnitude that it still caused all these problems. Until steam engines and metal-hulled (and bigger) ships are available, pulling anything like this will be back-breaking for the Empire.
I’m thinking the Sideroi will be often known for being both brilliant and brutal.
@Stark: It’s a ship, not a boat.
I admit I didn’t give any thought to IRV. I just wanted a naval prefix because my brain, used to USS and HMS, just finds it wrong not to have one.
@Lascaris: Yeah, the battle itself is going to get short-shift. I’m more interesting personally in the fate of the various characters, plus the fallout.
There are a couple of ways I can think of. Going around the Empire (takes forever). A Syrian spy smuggling a report through the Empire (undependable, risky). Roman prisoner that talks (most probable, but untrustworthy source).
@Antony444: It could’ve been worse for Ibrahim, but it could’ve been a lot better too. He’s not in a good position. I must admit, I feel for him. Yes, he was opportunistic, but none of what he did could be considered unreasonable for a person in his position.
The HRE is going to a mess of epic proportions.
@Imperial Inkstand-filler: Egypt has been getting smashed. First the Time of Troubles, then the Great Uprising, and now this. I don’t know the exact number, but the Egyptian population of the mid-1600s will be comparable to the post-Black Death population of three hundred years earlier. Ouch.
JSC: It is definitely overkill. But Demetrios III, when he’s mad, is not particularly subtle.
Northern Mesopotamia and to repopulate Upper Macedonia and Danube-Bulgaria are going to be the main destinations for demobilized soldiers. Once the Romans get out of the Aegean basin they’ll only be able to support a field army of 100,000 in one theater at once anyway.
Good analysis as always. That Rhomania, with a properly equipped artillery depot set up, can be besieging Mosul in less than a week, was one of the big reasons why both Demetrios III and Ibrahim had the priority of holding northern Mesopotamia.
And nice mapping. Really helps to illustrate why the Latins are somewhat…confused about the situation in the east.
@Tuna-Fish: I knew the Mamelukes were bad, but not that bad. Sheesh. TTL Egypt got a good chunk of that though; ITTL the Mamelukes got conquered just a few decades earlier than IOTL, although the Romans were taking bites out of Syria much earlier.
@Soverihn: Yeah, everyone’s creaking. Except the Triunes…
@ImperatorAlexander: Sideroi warfare-subtlety, what’s that?
He could catch a lot of money. Although Demetrios III might decide, as an insult, to demand a smaller ransom. Theodoros IV wouldn’t do that, but Demetrios might.
My plan is to have the Sideroi be the Imperial dynasty that makes it to the present day. The Time of Troubles, with the War of the Rivers as an epilogue, are meant to be the last of the Roman “wars of succession”. I know this is The War of the Roman Succession, but in form it’s been a Romans vs. foreigners, not a civil war.
@Donald Reaver: Yeah, just keeping current territory(ish) and decent management and the Romans are doing very well for themselves.
Ottoman population: Here’s a quote from 1633/34: Not counting the lands of northern Italy that are still technically part of the HRE, there are over 26 million inhabitants in those dominions (compared to 18 million in the Roman heartland plus another 6.5 million in the Despotates, 22.5 million in the Triple Monarchy, and 14 million in the Ottoman Empire). Hungary and Poland between them add another 8 million to the lists.
This is all based on pre-war figures, so the details have changed, but the basic proportions are the same.
@Vince: It’d be ironic if Theodor got injured in such a way that his nose was slit, since back in the early Byzantine Empire that was a way to disqualify someone from the Roman throne without killing them.
Phooey. I forgot about that. He did, but Demetrios declined.
@MarshalofMontival: I just finished reading Barbara Tuchman’s biography of General Stilwell. One part I found interesting was that Stilwell was trying to fight a battle of annihilation, but his Chinese troops, following Sun Tzu, would make a three-sided attack on the Japanese but always left them a clear escape route. Which Stilwell found really frustrating.
@TheWanderingReader: I admit it’s a little surreal looking back at the early years where Timur was the BIG BAD and now looking at who’s on the Roman throne. I had no idea this would happen back then; I started planning this towards the end of the Time of Troubles.
And I wanted to bring up the war criminal bit. I am, and I assume most of us here, are pro-Roman, but it’s important to remember that the Romans are an empire. There will be brutality and war crimes and genocides. I don’t like that, but people are like that, so to be realistic they should happen. And given my recent rant about whitewashing the British Empire, I shouldn’t be doing the same here with the Romans.
The lack of food is just the limitations of pre-industrial agriculture and transportation. The demands for shipping completely messed up the distribution network for a big chunk of the Empire.
@JohnSmith: And if we’re being technically, it’s not one animal. It’s tens of thousands of animals. And animals can be infected by panic and stampede off cliffs.
There are lots of ways that the information flow can go wrong for the Allies. I’ll be going into more detail in an upcoming update.
@Cryostorm: An Iran+Iraq+Pakistan (ish) state is better placed to be a rival to Rhomania than just an Iran. Geography is still a serious handicap though.
@InMediasRes: The Romans tried that card when Ibrahim first invaded, but their first contact nabbed the prince and delivered him to Ibrahim. The prince there was a double, so the Romans still have him, but they haven’t tried to use him since after that rather discouraging start. One disadvantage was that the prince was 12/13 at the time. In 1641 he’ll be a more serious contender.
@CurtainJerker: The examples you give are of a tactical-level intelligence rather than an operational-level. Very different things. A cavalry scout can see what the enemy is doing on the other side of the hill, but is useless for providing information about what’s going on a thousand miles away.
Also I’m going to be jumping back to go through the thought process of Theodor in the summer in an upcoming update. Thematically, it made sense to me to tightly focus on what the Romans specifically are thinking and doing.
And the Allies aren’t blind. They have sources. But getting information is only half the battle; it also has to be interpreted properly.
@Komnenos002: Demetrios is back in Constantinople now. He’s not the military type.
@Duke of Nova Scotia: That would be fun. Although I suspect Demetrios wouldn’t be that heartbroken if the Allied army was smashed flat rather than surrender.
And I love the idea of ‘losing his mind to a cannonball’.
I think seeing this great project, in which he has invested literally everything, disintegrating in front of his eyes, won’t be conducive for mental health.
Vauban’s still at Thessaloniki, overseeing the siege for what it’s worth.
Demetrios really would love to retire. In one of the narrative scenes, he and Eudoxia did talk about “running away together”. I’m pretty sure that would make him the first Roman Emperor to voluntarily abdicate since Diocletian!
@Babyrage: TTL Blucher’s expanded much more as a character from when I originally envisioned. He’s inspired by, rather than a copy of, the OTL figure.
There will be Japanese intermarriage at some point (Demetrios’ great-grandkids?). The Roman Imperial family should look interesting (not a value judgment, just a comment). Odysseus and Athena are both half-Roman (itself a mix) and half-Ethiopian.
This month's Megas Kyr special update, A Samurai in the Sunset Lands, has been posted on Patreon. It covers the life and career of Sassa Narimasa, a Ronin who ends up serving in Mexico. It is a look at the Empire of Mexico around this time (1620s to 1650s) using his career as a vehicle.
@Praetor98: Yeah, the ‘eastern question’ will be something Rhomania will also have to deal with. But regarding the west, this is a unique opportunity.
@Rui: Tactics will be a bit more sophisticated, but that is the cliff notes version
@HanEmpire: Not much, but Mecca is still the destination of the hajj. It’s not about the sight-seeing, but the act of devotion that the pilgrimage represents that is really important.
Those names are right; the Egyptian name is in Coptic form.
The Ottomans, in the long-term, I don’t see as being able to staying level with the Romans. Demographics and geography are against them, as you pointed out. I think though they can still be a big player, capable of keeping the Romans on their toes even if in a one-on-one contest they’d lose. Think Rhomania=1914 Germany and Ottomans=1914 France.
The Sikhs are rising, but they’re not at ‘powerful Sikh Empire’ just yet.
@RogueTraderEnthusiast: Well, there’s only so big a wooden fleet a country can build, and Rhomania’s not the best situated for naval supplies. The Romans have a big merchant marine and war fleet, but this task was of such magnitude that it still caused all these problems. Until steam engines and metal-hulled (and bigger) ships are available, pulling anything like this will be back-breaking for the Empire.
I’m thinking the Sideroi will be often known for being both brilliant and brutal.
@Stark: It’s a ship, not a boat.
I admit I didn’t give any thought to IRV. I just wanted a naval prefix because my brain, used to USS and HMS, just finds it wrong not to have one.
@Lascaris: Yeah, the battle itself is going to get short-shift. I’m more interesting personally in the fate of the various characters, plus the fallout.
There are a couple of ways I can think of. Going around the Empire (takes forever). A Syrian spy smuggling a report through the Empire (undependable, risky). Roman prisoner that talks (most probable, but untrustworthy source).
@Antony444: It could’ve been worse for Ibrahim, but it could’ve been a lot better too. He’s not in a good position. I must admit, I feel for him. Yes, he was opportunistic, but none of what he did could be considered unreasonable for a person in his position.
The HRE is going to a mess of epic proportions.
@Imperial Inkstand-filler: Egypt has been getting smashed. First the Time of Troubles, then the Great Uprising, and now this. I don’t know the exact number, but the Egyptian population of the mid-1600s will be comparable to the post-Black Death population of three hundred years earlier. Ouch.
JSC: It is definitely overkill. But Demetrios III, when he’s mad, is not particularly subtle.
Northern Mesopotamia and to repopulate Upper Macedonia and Danube-Bulgaria are going to be the main destinations for demobilized soldiers. Once the Romans get out of the Aegean basin they’ll only be able to support a field army of 100,000 in one theater at once anyway.
Good analysis as always. That Rhomania, with a properly equipped artillery depot set up, can be besieging Mosul in less than a week, was one of the big reasons why both Demetrios III and Ibrahim had the priority of holding northern Mesopotamia.
And nice mapping. Really helps to illustrate why the Latins are somewhat…confused about the situation in the east.
@Tuna-Fish: I knew the Mamelukes were bad, but not that bad. Sheesh. TTL Egypt got a good chunk of that though; ITTL the Mamelukes got conquered just a few decades earlier than IOTL, although the Romans were taking bites out of Syria much earlier.
@Soverihn: Yeah, everyone’s creaking. Except the Triunes…
@ImperatorAlexander: Sideroi warfare-subtlety, what’s that?
He could catch a lot of money. Although Demetrios III might decide, as an insult, to demand a smaller ransom. Theodoros IV wouldn’t do that, but Demetrios might.
My plan is to have the Sideroi be the Imperial dynasty that makes it to the present day. The Time of Troubles, with the War of the Rivers as an epilogue, are meant to be the last of the Roman “wars of succession”. I know this is The War of the Roman Succession, but in form it’s been a Romans vs. foreigners, not a civil war.
@Donald Reaver: Yeah, just keeping current territory(ish) and decent management and the Romans are doing very well for themselves.
Ottoman population: Here’s a quote from 1633/34: Not counting the lands of northern Italy that are still technically part of the HRE, there are over 26 million inhabitants in those dominions (compared to 18 million in the Roman heartland plus another 6.5 million in the Despotates, 22.5 million in the Triple Monarchy, and 14 million in the Ottoman Empire). Hungary and Poland between them add another 8 million to the lists.
This is all based on pre-war figures, so the details have changed, but the basic proportions are the same.
@Vince: It’d be ironic if Theodor got injured in such a way that his nose was slit, since back in the early Byzantine Empire that was a way to disqualify someone from the Roman throne without killing them.
Phooey. I forgot about that. He did, but Demetrios declined.
@MarshalofMontival: I just finished reading Barbara Tuchman’s biography of General Stilwell. One part I found interesting was that Stilwell was trying to fight a battle of annihilation, but his Chinese troops, following Sun Tzu, would make a three-sided attack on the Japanese but always left them a clear escape route. Which Stilwell found really frustrating.
@TheWanderingReader: I admit it’s a little surreal looking back at the early years where Timur was the BIG BAD and now looking at who’s on the Roman throne. I had no idea this would happen back then; I started planning this towards the end of the Time of Troubles.
And I wanted to bring up the war criminal bit. I am, and I assume most of us here, are pro-Roman, but it’s important to remember that the Romans are an empire. There will be brutality and war crimes and genocides. I don’t like that, but people are like that, so to be realistic they should happen. And given my recent rant about whitewashing the British Empire, I shouldn’t be doing the same here with the Romans.
The lack of food is just the limitations of pre-industrial agriculture and transportation. The demands for shipping completely messed up the distribution network for a big chunk of the Empire.
@JohnSmith: And if we’re being technically, it’s not one animal. It’s tens of thousands of animals. And animals can be infected by panic and stampede off cliffs.
There are lots of ways that the information flow can go wrong for the Allies. I’ll be going into more detail in an upcoming update.
@Cryostorm: An Iran+Iraq+Pakistan (ish) state is better placed to be a rival to Rhomania than just an Iran. Geography is still a serious handicap though.
@InMediasRes: The Romans tried that card when Ibrahim first invaded, but their first contact nabbed the prince and delivered him to Ibrahim. The prince there was a double, so the Romans still have him, but they haven’t tried to use him since after that rather discouraging start. One disadvantage was that the prince was 12/13 at the time. In 1641 he’ll be a more serious contender.
@CurtainJerker: The examples you give are of a tactical-level intelligence rather than an operational-level. Very different things. A cavalry scout can see what the enemy is doing on the other side of the hill, but is useless for providing information about what’s going on a thousand miles away.
Also I’m going to be jumping back to go through the thought process of Theodor in the summer in an upcoming update. Thematically, it made sense to me to tightly focus on what the Romans specifically are thinking and doing.
And the Allies aren’t blind. They have sources. But getting information is only half the battle; it also has to be interpreted properly.
@Komnenos002: Demetrios is back in Constantinople now. He’s not the military type.
@Duke of Nova Scotia: That would be fun. Although I suspect Demetrios wouldn’t be that heartbroken if the Allied army was smashed flat rather than surrender.
And I love the idea of ‘losing his mind to a cannonball’.
I think seeing this great project, in which he has invested literally everything, disintegrating in front of his eyes, won’t be conducive for mental health.
Vauban’s still at Thessaloniki, overseeing the siege for what it’s worth.
Demetrios really would love to retire. In one of the narrative scenes, he and Eudoxia did talk about “running away together”. I’m pretty sure that would make him the first Roman Emperor to voluntarily abdicate since Diocletian!
@Babyrage: TTL Blucher’s expanded much more as a character from when I originally envisioned. He’s inspired by, rather than a copy of, the OTL figure.
There will be Japanese intermarriage at some point (Demetrios’ great-grandkids?). The Roman Imperial family should look interesting (not a value judgment, just a comment). Odysseus and Athena are both half-Roman (itself a mix) and half-Ethiopian.
This month's Megas Kyr special update, A Samurai in the Sunset Lands, has been posted on Patreon. It covers the life and career of Sassa Narimasa, a Ronin who ends up serving in Mexico. It is a look at the Empire of Mexico around this time (1620s to 1650s) using his career as a vehicle.
But at least that genocide was successful, leaving a non-rebellious majority population... right?
I'd argue it's pretty tough to ever characterize genocide as successful, both on humanitarian terms and on a purely economic level. If we're taking the current Egyptian population as comparable to the Egyptian population after the Black Death, that means that the region has lost out on 300 years of growth and expansion. For comparison, TTL's Rhomania had a population of 12 Million in 1414, which has increased to 18 million by 1633/1634, a 50% increase. Egypt, by contrast, lost around 40% of it's population to the Black Death in OTL, and presumably similarly TTL, and is still at that level by the 1640s. Rhoman mismanagement (and, to be fair, Ethiopian aggression) has taken a region which was historically the equal of or superior to Greece and Anatolia in population, productivity, and economic value, and utterly decimated it instead. If you just want to talk hard numbers and success, look at the Imperial treatment of Anatolian Turks and the current economic productivity of Anatolia vs. the Imperial and Despotate treatment of Egyptian Arabs (including, but not limited to, the sack of Cairo, the hoarding of choice land to cause economic dependence, the Time of Troubles, the Great Uprising, and now outright genocide) and you see a territory made fundamentally weaker by your administrative actions - not to mention the tragic loss of human life and obliteration of a vibrant culture. B444 is definitely correct about Rhomania still being an Empire and still having a lot of blood on their hands.
Thanks for answering. I literally started writing my new timeline last night since the lady was out so I had a few free hours. I found that this bolded part is pretty true - it is better to focus on one/a few characters at a time rather than bounce around from person to person in an attempt to keep things strictly chronological. So I totally understand where you are coming from here.
Evilprodigy
Donor
Why are so many posts between updates about the far far future of Roman Industrialization and other things? We're in the 1630s guys. Pretty much nothing here is going to be relevant two hundred years from now. Situations can change within hours, let alone the at minimum two centuries before anything industrial happens.