An Age of Miracles Continues: The Empire of Rhomania

We all thought this was a Byzantine-wank but it is low-key turning into a Brit-wank given the success of the Triunes so far.

Our author has alluded to a English Civil War analog though so that could help knock the Triunes down to size. Plus all the forces of nationalism that could rip through Rhomania are just as applicable to the Triunes (and everyone else - including the Ottomans with their Turkish and Persian wings).
 
The reality of the situation is that the empire will never be able to compete in steel production. It will have some but does not have the amount of coal that can be found in Wester Europe. That said here are more things in industrialization than just steel...
 
We all thought this was a Byzantine-wank but it is low-key turning into a Brit-wank given the success of the Triunes so far.

Our author has alluded to a English Civil War analog though so that could help knock the Triunes down to size. Plus all the forces of nationalism that could rip through Rhomania are just as applicable to the Triunes (and everyone else - including the Ottomans with their Turkish and Persian wings).

Here's hoping the British and French separate!
 
The reality of the situation is that the empire will never be able to compete in steel production. It will have some but does not have the amount of coal that can be found in Wester Europe. That said here are more things in industrialization than just steel...
You never know. South Korea is one of the world's largest steel producers, and it imports almost all of its iron ore and coal.
 
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You never know. South Korea is one of the world's largest steel producers, and it imports almost all of its iron ore and coal.

Think rather of world steel production in 1914. Iron ore is not going to be much of a problem but shipping coal in the millions of tons to sustain a large steel industry will remain an issue. Not going to compete with the Germans, Triunes and whoever controls North America there. The empire has constraints similar to Italy which was producing 2 million tons a year to Germany''s 10. A ballpark figure around 4-5 million tons plus development of the Donbas seems logical.
 
The empire's future population estimates should take into account the fact that its territories won't go through the stagnation, wars, and numerous genocides that they experienced OTL. Add onto that the Empire's pronatal policies and slower industrialization (less smog & ultra-dense cities), and we'll see a truly fearsome state.

They will also go through demographic transition much sooner. Look at French - Algerian population in 1800 and now. I doubt all Roman territories will experience a prolonged highbirth rate as some of these OTL undeveloped territories did.
 
Think rather of world steel production in 1914. Iron ore is not going to be much of a problem but shipping coal in the millions of tons to sustain a large steel industry will remain an issue. Not going to compete with the Germans, Triunes and whoever controls North America there. The empire has constraints similar to Italy which was producing 2 million tons a year to Germany''s 10. A ballpark figure around 4-5 million tons plus development of the Donbas seems logical.

If we look at the UK historically there is one area that we've not discussed that isn't anyone's yet.

Australia. That could become the start of a broader Roman Industrial Economy if they have it and find those minerals before anyone else. If the Triunes get it........ yikes
 
They will also go through demographic transition much sooner. Look at French - Algerian population in 1800 and now. I doubt all Roman territories will experience a prolonged highbirth rate as some of these OTL undeveloped territories did.

Demographic transition occurs when additional farm laborers are no longer beneficial to farm families. As more people become industrial workers rather than farmers , the transition will occur. Because of Rhomanias presumed later industrial rev , I would think they would transition after much of north west Europe
 
They will also go through demographic transition much sooner. Look at French - Algerian population in 1800 and now. I doubt all Roman territories will experience a prolonged highbirth rate as some of these OTL undeveloped territories did.
The Empire is unlikely to go through something like the French demographic plateau of the 19th century, there doesn't seem to be as large a mass of independent landowning peasants, which is likely the main cause of that peculiar French growth. I'd even go so far as to say that China might be a good demographic "ruler" for Roman growth, obviously accounting for the difference in starting numbers and carrying capacity.

On a different note, I shudder to think of the violence the ATL Triune Civil War will unleash. A war across the channel for example would be a long, bloody conflict.
 
On a different note, I shudder to think of the violence the ATL Triune Civil War will unleash. A war across the channel for example would be a long, bloody conflict.

I'm not so sure it would be that bloody if it reaches a Continental vs Britain stalemate. The scale of the fighting would be limited by naval transportation.

It'd certainly be an economic disaster as the channel becomes unsafe, but that could benefit Scotland as it becomes the safe route for trade.

It'd be an interesting scenario.
 
If that happens France will get invaded by the Arletians immediately, possibly with lots of Spanish and Lotharingian support. Paris might burn a la Magdeburg.
 
I'm not so sure it would be that bloody if it reaches a Continental vs Britain stalemate. The scale of the fighting would be limited by naval transportation.

It'd certainly be an economic disaster as the channel becomes unsafe, but that could benefit Scotland as it becomes the safe route for trade.

It'd be an interesting scenario.
Ah, but I don't think it would be just a cross-channel fight, isn't King's Harbour on the continental side?
 
It could be kind of interesting that instead of a civil war it just kind of devolves into the Austria-Hungary of this world where the various ethnicities are competing with each other within the empire and just turning it into a ineffective mess.

And when the whole thing finally collapses the civil war would have a lot more reasons to go on to the bitter end.
 
Ah, but I don't think it would be just a cross-channel fight, isn't King's Harbour on the continental side?

Yep, I think it's in the location of OTL Le Havre. Could still be a cross-channel fight. Maybe the English and Irish parts revolt against French central control. I could see how it could turn into a stalemate. With most of the sailors and admirals presumably being English or Irish, the central government could face significant obstacles to cross the channel and subdue rebels.
 
Delighted to be caught up :)

Yes, it's interesting to speculate on the internal cohesion (or lack thereof) of the Triunes.
I imagine most of whether they hold or splinter would be on their own merits - should Lotharingia or the EAN intervene, the HRE would surely counter.

Additionally to that, the French portion of the population is quite possibly only the plurality, not a majority. Without the English and Irish they can't necessarily hold off Arles and Lotharingia.
 
@Praetor98: Just about. :)

@emperor joe: Very…interesting. If Rod Serling starts narrating near you, run.

@Donald Reaver: Glad you enjoyed it.

@Rui: An interesting fact is that both Blucher’s and Demetrios III’s death scenes were some of the first scenes I ever formulated for their characters.

@JSC: If it makes you feel better, I once wrote a fantasy story where a meteorite took out the bad guy’s army at the end…

It’s definitely going to be a bloodbath.

Yeah, regarding that prophecy, it’s all going to come to pass at some point. I never said when.

@ImperatorAlexander: Well, the plan was to be inside Thessaloniki by this point… Theodor’s plan hinged on a successful siege of Thessaloniki as a catalyst for an anti-Sideros revolt in Constantinople which would supposedly flip the Empire to him. Which is why he’s so fixated on the city.

@catconqueror: It’s right on the Aegean. The Thessaloniki harbor on the Thermaic Gulf is one of the biggest seaports in Rhomania. So this is ‘max logistical capability’ for the Romans here.

@Duke of Nova Scotia: I like cheese…

I think a lot of the Allied soldiers would take such a contract. It beats death, after all. Arming Latin POWs certainly wouldn’t happen. Defectors might be different, but on the other hand they’ve already betrayed one master, so who’s to say they won’t backstab the Romans, perhaps in battle against the Catholic Spanish?

Odysseus could wear his Xenophon hat… ;)

@HanEmpire: Yeah, Rhomania’s currently doing an ‘early Louis XIV France’ in fielding unprecedented armies substantially larger than any of its neighbors. Latin Europe will catch up, and rather quickly too I might add, but not in time for this war.

The whole bit with the astrology was 1) I found it fun to do and 2) that sort of thing was common to this period IOTL and people paid attention to it.

@Lascaris: Indeed. My plan is to cover the other theaters up until September, then return to here, at which point it’s a straight shot to the end of this arc.

Steel and coal production are going to be the two big areas where Rhomania won’t look so good compared to the other great powers. But in chemistry and physics, it’ll be publish in Greek or perish.

@Bergioyn: Thanks. It was fun to write. I wanted to take a break from the direct military action and focus on some nice intriguing and character development. The thing with the meatballs specifically was me being silly.

@Babyrage: Can’t answer any of these without spoilers. Sorry.

I’m sure he’s thought about the possibility of losing, and then tried really hard to squelch said thought, because it’s too horrible to contemplate, especially since it’s self-inflicted.

@Stark: I probably have too. J I didn’t get the name specifically from EU4 (there were a few earlier in the TL that came from EU3), but Paradox pulled from the same pool of historical names that I did in this case.

@Arrix85: Athena is a lot of fun to write.

@CurtainJerker: That was a fun little joke.

Or the Papal Mainframe from Doctor Who…

The Triunes have been benefiting from the same thing that helped the Wittelsbachs out until this whole thing started. They were meant to be a big player, but didn’t get my attention nearly to the extent the Romans did, so they’ve had a lot less chucked at them because I’m focused on Rhomania.

@Vince: Best case scenario for the Romans has to have Blucher dying, as you pointed out. Although even with him alive, the army’s more brittle now than last year because he’s not in as good health and because Mackensen’s dead; he was the one who commanded the rearguard in the 1633 retreat from Ruse.

@Aristomenes: Glad you liked that scene. It was lots of fun to write. J

@Sceonn: Sorry to hear that. This arc is in the final phase though.

@Parmenion1: Somebody’s being saucy… ;)

@TheWanderingReader: There’s a Romance of the Three Kingdoms quote that I’ve been saving that really encapsulates Blucher ITTL (the quote itself helped inspire his character arc). Above all else, he was loyal.

Not wrong. Bone Breaker’s more prominent than originally intended because he’s fun.

@boringasian: Yeah, saying that would be…unwise.

Reinforcements are good, but somehow I still feel uneasy. The fields of Philip can refer to the plains of Macedonia if you harken back to the days of ole Philip II. Not one for defeats but still expecting the thrill of the story nevertheless.

The thing with prophecies though, is that they tend to be somewhat vague. Makes them more likely to be accurate.

@DracoLazarus: He could win a prison cell in the White Palace too. That sort-of counts as taking the Palace, right?

@JohnSmith: That’s not realistic. It’s going to be Bone Breaker and it’s going to be 30… (on a side note, why is it 20, of all numbers to pick, good men? I know it’s a trope, but I’m curious as to why that number.)

That’s a good point, but Arles especially and Spain are both limited in how much they can troll the Triunes in the colonies. Too much and they risk provoking a war in Europe with King’s Harbor.

Triunes/New World/Rhomania: I’d agree that in the context of this war, the Romans have won in the Caribbean. They’ve turned what should’ve been a secure region into a contested battleground. In a sense, the Romans are the TTL version of French/English pirates picking at what used to be a Spanish Caribbean. But having said that, in terms of projecting power Rhomania is at a serious disadvantage of any Atlantic power. To continue that analogy, those pirates were able to give Spain a big headache, but the Spanish Empire in the Americas kept its territorial integrity.

It would be really hard for Rhomania to stop an Atlantic power from taking its Caribbean holdings; their best defense will be hitting said Atlantic power in other areas and getting them back at the peace negotiations. Although now having said that, every ship and trooper sent to the Caribbean by said Atlantic power is also a ship or trooper that is not being sent to Island Asia.

@MarshalofMontival: Well, the Triunes have the eastern border with Lotharingia, southern border with Arles, and the Scottish border. The biggest possible advantage I’d give the Triunes vis-à-vis the Romans at this time is what I’m calling “greater population potential”. France, particularly northern France, is very good at supporting a large population even with pre-modern agriculture. Turkey has more population than France now, but compare the rates in the 1800s and earlier and there’s a big difference. Now a good chunk of that could be attributed to historical trends rather than just agriculture, but Rhomania is a Mediterranean state. And at this point IOTL Mediterranean states were having problems agriculturally compared to northern/western Europe because those lands had been used for farming for literally thousands of years and are so more exhausted. (I’m basing this off of Dr. Braudel’s The Mediterranean in the Age of Philip II if you’re curious.)

This is all assuming an OTL trend, of course, but OTL is the baseline after all.

Population figures: OTL figures are the baseline for discussion certainly, but I would like to add a few qualifiers. Considering where we are ITTL, current figures skew the results. If you compare Turkey and France today, and then compare Turkey in 1900 (the region) and France it is a vastly different story. The rules change substantially with the improvements in agriculture in the 20th century.

Also I would like present-day TTL Earth to be more lightly populated than present-day OTL Earth (with at least similar, preferably better tech), say 3-4 billion.

Antony444: Thanks. :)

Industrialization: Regarding industrialization, I’d say even if there was a way I could justify the Romans pioneering the First Industrial Revolution, it’s not going to happen. I like the idea of the Romans being behind in the first wave of industrialization, then kicking off big in the Second Industrial Revolution, being prominent leaders in chemistry and physics and electronics. Think Germany instead of Great Britain.

@jjstraub4: I like the idea of a surviving Lotharingia too, although given its geographical position it’s guaranteed a most tumultuous history.

Regarding the Irish, they’re still the littlest of the 3 kingdoms. There are going to be some issues for the Triple Monarchy here, partly because of English-Irish relations. The English have a long history of looking down on the Irish, and its origins are pre-POD and still extant.

@CV12Hornet: Good maps. Thanks.

@minifidel: An idea I have for developing Siberia ITTL is that Romans provide capital and impetus for resource extraction to feed their industries. Having a developed Siberia solves pretty much every resource problem.

I wonder, what’s the earliest that a Don-Volga canal is feasible? I know the Ottomans tried in the mid-1500s and failed, but that was part of a military expedition against Muscovy to liberate the Khanate of Kazan. Quite a different kettle of fish from a peacetime operation done with the cooperation of the locals.

King’s Harbor is OTL Le Havre.

@RogueTraderEnthusiast: Roman Australia. Can you imagine what they’d do to the Greek language?

Cross-channel war doesn’t sound too bad. After all, that’s every single Anglo-French conflict of the Age of Sail (and Anglo-Dutch too).

@Khaine: A dysfunctional Austria-Hungary realm could be fun. But then some Welsh guy or something would kill the Prince of Wales and ruin everything for everybody. ;)

Aldonius: I will be elaborating on the Triunes more in the future. I’ve just started laying the sides for a major plot arc with them later in the century (1660s/70s?). The French do make up the majority of the population (early modern France was a serious powerhouse, and the north was where the people where). Of the 22.5 million Triunes, I figure 15.75 million are French, 4.5 million English, and 2.25 million Irish.



It’s going to be a few more days before the next update. I’m behind in my writing.
 
@JohnSmith: That’s not realistic. It’s going to be Bone Breaker and it’s going to be 30… (on a side note, why is it 20, of all numbers to pick, good men? I know it’s a trope, but I’m curious as to why that number.)
It's a meme from Game of Thrones, specifically this scene:

An asshole antagonist with ridiculous plot armour destroyed an entire army with 20 good men.
 
A dysfunctional Austria-Hungary realm could be fun. But then some Welsh guy or something would kill the Prince of Wales and ruin everything for everybody. ;)

I certainly hope that doesn't turn into the First Weltkrieg, or else a Herakliean Islander would be wondering why is he fighting against the Chinese cause some Welsh dude shot a Triune Royal family member :p:biggrin:

Also that twenty good men thing was absolute bs, and perhaps one of the final nails in the coffin for Stannis Baratheon's arc. What a shame, I liked his book version too. I hope such a feat doesn't happen for Blutcher, knowing Basileus it's higly unlikely that's for sure.
 
An idea I have for developing Siberia ITTL is that Romans provide capital and impetus for resource extraction to feed their industries. Having a developed Siberia solves pretty much every resource problem.
I imagine that even if the first wave of industrialization comes late to Rhomania, the Romans are going to railroad crazy as soon as it's possible to build extensive railroads, precisely to tap into those resources.
I wonder, what’s the earliest that a Don-Volga canal is feasible? I know the Ottomans tried in the mid-1500s and failed, but that was part of a military expedition against Muscovy to liberate the Khanate of Kazan. Quite a different kettle of fish from a peacetime operation done with the cooperation of the locals.
According to wikipedia at least, there was another attempt in the beginning of the 18th century that worked for a while, but was eventually abandoned by Russia. I don't think there's any technological impediment, not by this point ITTL, and it would probably get financing and technical assistance from the Empire, which has plenty of experience building canals.
It's a meme from Game of Thrones, specifically this scene:

An asshole antagonist with ridiculous plot armour destroyed an entire army with 20 good men.
God I hated that scene, and have just lost all patience for D&D's ridiculous excuse for "warfare" in the show. I could write a whole rant on the ridiculous things they did in the last season.
 
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