Eyes Turned Skywards

I do like the Artemis logo.

Ooh! Cool! I like the Orion patch.
Nixonshead, I should note, designed those himself, so all the credit goes to him for the lovely work. :)

P.S. Does NASA abandon "The Worm" in this timeline?
You haven't been looking very carefully, have you? We call it the "Wormball," and it's been seen on NASA spacecraft ITTL since about the start of Artemis test flights in the mid-90s. Basically, anywhere a graphic logo is appropriate, the wormball appears, while the worm alone remains for text-only uses. Take a look through the gallery and you'll see nixonshead has it on spacesuits, spacecraft, and reports. :)

Also:
No post this week either? I hope nothing's wrong, e of pi.
Thank you for the best wishes, they mean a lot. Nothing's wrong, it's just been busy for both myself and Workable Goblin, and as he said we're trying to make sure we have the whole conclusion to the TL edited for a strong finish to this project before we resume posting. We're getting things together, and hopefully this unplanned mini-haitus shouldn't be too long.
 
With basically all landings happening at a single site at the south pole, that really limits the science that can be done.

Selenology is going to have to be the province of the Russians iTTL, with their LunarGrunts, eh?

Also. You talked earlier about a Mark II farside radio telescope, iirc, which would require a second lunar base on Farside, no?

Just how many bases can NASA (with limited contribution from partners) support, anyway?
 
I figured the plan for "Farside" radio astronomy was to start with very-near Farside--ie whatever is in reachable distance from the polar base in the away-from-Earth direction. So, just over the horizon from Earth to begin with--why not? It would be restricted to viewing the (Lunar) southern sky, oh well. Unless they make the antennae very very tall, it would still be shielded from Terran and even Earth satellite emissions.

So it's a question of how far they can haul stuff from polar base landing sites. Or for that matter, at a bit of a risk one can simply direct landing craft to land items at the planned site. So it's not so much a question of what can be trucked from the main base site as one of how far out from the main base can the astronauts survey and occasionally in future visit the site, to fix things.

If one can land items launched from Earth directly in the telescope operations zone, I'd think one could go a bit further and teleoperate equipment there from the main base, anyway monitor it remotely and only send humans out to the site if something goes wrong or there is a major installation project that needs an actual human set of eyeballs and hands on site.

I imagine the project requires an initial survey expedition to the site, to take a very close look at the terrain, and setting up just a few array units initially, then with monitoring equipment left in place successive missions of unmanned landers-a series of Luna-Pes, designed to unload their deliveries onto a teleoperated rover-truck left at the site--will bring more array elements, which need to be placed and interconnected to the existing array using strung lines--I suppose DC power lines, just bare strands of aluminum or copper should do, with a fiber-optic bundle incorporated so the units can send digital signals that won't interfere with the observations. I suppose each unit can have its own solar array except they'd be in shadow a lot, so a "central" power collector with a sun tracking solar array might be in order--not really central as I imagine a fair-sized crater has been selected, and the site to catch constant sun would be on the crater rim. Cumulatively the tonnage of power/data lines would add up, but it only needs to be delivered a little bit at a time. The setup operations would normally be accomplished by teleoperation from the Soon-Base, or if the time delay can be worked with, even directly from Earth via the Lagrange point comsats. Once an element is sited and plugged in, it should operate for decades without anyone having to mess with it.

Teleoperation from the base via the Lagrange point relay sats will involve time lags significantly less than trying to operate them from Earth. Still the tenth-second or so lag might be annoying enough to justify installing a set of line of sight ground relays on strategic high elevations along the route to the site, which would cut the delay down to imperceptible by human sense.

All of this is me speculating how I'd suggest doing it; if it was addressed to the contrary in canon posts I'll be embarrassed.

But I like thinking of it this way because despite the sortie minimization, it conjures up visions of a permanent road on Luna--just a "dirt" track of course, with the com relays set on various "hill" tops to serve as visual signposts. It reminds me of Heinlein's Have Space Suit, Will Travel which despite its awkward title is one of my favorite Heinlein juveniles--specifically the flight of Cliff and Pewee from the alien ship to Tombaugh station, on foot in spacesuits--Cliff mentions the minimal but visible improvements that make it a "road."

To have it at quite that level would clearly be beyond the Soonbase's capability--at any rate no one has mentioned any blasting operations to open up passes through barriers--and I'm pretty sure that's a major milestone to cross!:D But the site was chosen, I believe, to allow direct access with no blasting to a suitable location for the next level of "Farside" radio telescopy. Someday there will need to be a second base at the other pole to allow imaging of the other hemisphere, and perhaps it will be necessary to site a really big and therefore more sensitive array much farther around the lunar limb to cut off every last echo of Earth's emissions. Though I'd think being out of line of sight should be enough; radio waves don't bend, unless there is a medium to refract them--the Moon does have a micro-trace of atmosphere to be sure, but it is just that, a teeny trace. Would it really be enough to bounce any of Earth's emissions past where you can see the Earth?

I'd think a much bigger problem would be the evolving supra-Farside orbital installations, at E-L L2; the com relays are going to have to be redesigned, if they weren't carefully designed initially, to minimize interference with radio telescopy.

It may be that the promise of Lunar Farside radio telescopy is fleeting and limited, since by the time we can support a really serious installation there, with or without human presence, we'll also be committed to using L-2 as the gateway to the entire solar system, with all manner of noisy operations proceeding all over the Farside sky.
 
With basically all landings happening at a single site at the south pole, that really limits the science that can be done.

Well, compared to our present situation, it's still vastly more...

But even so: With the new pressurized lunar rover, the astronauts at Orion/Shackleton can range "an order of magnitude" farther than the Artemis rover had been able to travel on EVA's (40km)...which would be 400km. A circle with a 400km radius is a pretty darned big area to explore - a pretty fair chunk of the southern hemisphere - enough to keep the crews busy for a good while. For one thing, they could reach easily to Malapert Mountain (120km from Shackleton) a 5km tall peak that is perpetually visible from the Earth, and which could serve as a radio relay station when suitably equipped (Moon Express has discussed doing something like this there).

Eventually, one imagines more capabilities could be added - more robotic rovers sent out to check out sites for human visits, and other possibilities expanding the crew visit radius even farther.
 
Here's an interesting map I came across, which gives some idea of distances and features within range of the new rover - some fellow's proposed lunar south pole development plan working from Malapert rather than Shackleton as a base:

LunaSouthPole_development_concept.png
 
Here's an interesting map I came across, which gives some idea of distances and features within range of the new rover - some fellow's proposed lunar south pole development plan working from Malapert rather than Shackleton as a base:
Actually, thanks for posting that! I'll note that conveniently his circles are centered...almost perfectly on the site of the Orion outpost (I think that's even the right area of the rim of the crater). Thus, you can use his circles as "distance from home base" marks. :)

However, I think the debate here is one that's certainly going on ITTL--there's a lot within range of the base, but they're giving up a much wider variety of sites to get it. Back on the first hand, lunar base for cheaper than sorties and more time on the surface. So...it's an interesting tradeoff.
 
As far as lunar astronomy goes, the astronomers would certainly prefer an equatorial site, probably at a limb for operational simplicity, and one was probably considered, but non-astronomical programs (particularly ISRU experimentation) drove the selection of a less-optimal location. Any base is a compromise, and in this case one of the things that was compromised was the range of astronomical activities that could be carried out.
 
Any base is a compromise...

Oh, absolutely.

Still, there are plenty of astronomical possibilities for NASA and its partners...

I still say that a 400km radius (is that right?) for multi-month surface missions at Orion/Shackleton leaves plenty of exciting destinations to explore, enough to keep Orion crews busy for years. But there are other possibilities:

1) Small robotic rovers brought up to Orion to scout out sites worthy of human visit - just the thing to try for awards programs.

2) For sites beyond the hab rover radius, robotic rovers might not be optimal, given how slow they are and how far they would have to go. But I wonder about unmanned flying vehicles that could be dispatched from Orion, perhaps also on an awards program...this could be a way for NASA to gather enough information to decide whether a second base is worth doing, and what location would be a worthwhile site for it.
 
...

2) For sites beyond the hab rover radius, robotic rovers might not be optimal, given how slow they are and how far they would have to go. But I wonder about unmanned flying vehicles that could be dispatched from Orion,....

My bold.

Even in as thin an atmosphere as Mars's, aerodynamic flight is an option. Luna has no such atmosphere, and there is no "flight," only objects launched on trajectories that are orbits or fractions of orbits.

Suborbital jumping is possible, but very costly in terms of propellant, hence craft designs that need to be mostly propellant tank as well. The trouble with it is that clearly any hop that requires launching to any speed at or above half orbital velocity will cost as much propellant as a launch into full orbit, or landing from it, because there are two burns involved, the takeoff and then the landing. But going so slow as one half the orbital speed results in a very short hop! I make it out to be not much greater than the 400 km range we are told is attainable by ground crawler, under 500 km.
 
My bold.

Even in as thin an atmosphere as Mars's, aerodynamic flight is an option. Luna has no such atmosphere, and there is no "flight," only objects launched on trajectories that are orbits or fractions of orbits.

Suborbital jumping is possible, but very costly in terms of propellant, hence craft designs that need to be mostly propellant tank as well. The trouble with it is that clearly any hop that requires launching to any speed at or above half orbital velocity will cost as much propellant as a launch into full orbit, or landing from it, because there are two burns involved, the takeoff and then the landing. But going so slow as one half the orbital speed results in a very short hop! I make it out to be not much greater than the 400 km range we are told is attainable by ground crawler, under 500 km.

I had in mind something like an unmanned version of the LFV Bell, which perhaps in turn could drop off rovers at distant sites of interest. Obviously that's not "flying" in a conventional sense - yes, it would require some propellant, but we've made certain advances since the 60's in materials and specific impulse...

At least, at any rate, until they can get some of these...

js_warp_Ssm7.jpg
 
Are we getting an update this week? Don't rush it, because I'd rather have a good piece of writing later than a crappy piece sooner. Unless you're Half Life 3. God damn it.
 
Are we getting an update this week? Don't rush it, because I'd rather have a good piece of writing later than a crappy piece sooner. Unless you're Half Life 3. God damn it.
Not yet. We've got about three updates in progress, and another few after those, but it'll still be another few weeks before things are ready--I'm still wrestling with some work things, and Workable Goblin's been abroad. Once again, we apologize for the delay.
 
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Well, bless me, apparently "flyer" is the word for a thing that goes point to point on a body with negligible atmosphere, at least if we take Mark Wade's Encyclopedia Astronautica as authoritative.

Mark Wade said:
Lunar flyers would use rocket power to get crew or cargo quickly from one point on the lunar surface to another. The larger versions could act as rescue vehicles to get crew members to lunar orbit for pick-up and return to earth. Their horrendous fuel requirements meant that they were mainly considered for one-use rescue missions - for example to return a crew from a disabled lunar rover, beyond walking distance back to their lander. Some Apollo variants proposed using leftover propellant from the Lunar Module descent stage to fuel such flyers.

I put in the bold to highlight what I am talking about. I think it would be smart to have a standby Flyer ready to go help some manned remote mission gone wrong. Using them for regular transport though is terribly prohibitive.

I had in mind something like an unmanned version of the LFV Bell, which perhaps in turn could drop off rovers at distant sites of interest. Obviously that's not "flying" in a conventional sense - yes, it would require some propellant, but we've made certain advances since the 60's in materials and specific impulse...

I don't believe materials are any sort of problem at all; the Wright Brothers could probably have designed a suitable Lunar Flyer, if they studied up on liquid fuel rockets instead of aerodynamics. Well, I exaggerate...although there was a Brazilian or Argentine around their time who some claim was in fact making working LOX engines, but anyway the engine tech of the 50s would be plenty adequate, or the 60s at the latest for hydrogen-oxygen.

Have we really made any significant advances in ISP since the late 60s? Incremental at best, wringing maybe 10 percent more, and at that to do that the engine needs to be sophisticated, with high pressure pumps--the Apollo LM could surely have had a higher performance engine, designed in the early 60s, if the mission planners wanted to risk the possibility of a pump failure. They opted for somewhat lower performance with improved reliability with their ultra-simple pressure fed hypergolic fuel design. The choices of chemical propellant remain the same as what was known back then--every "new" trick I've heard of, such as hybrid solids where the oxidant is a liquid, was studied on paper decades before. To get better ISP than a hydrogen-oxygen rocket such as the 60s vintage Centaur one has to either use fluorine for oxidant or go nuclear--I don't suppose you are proposing a nuclear thermal Flyer?:eek: (And although not on this petite scale, NTR is also 60s vintage tech...) Or one can get fantastic ISP with a Hall thruster, 3000 or more--and really really puny thrust. Great for cruising the asteroid belt over a period of years, useless on the Moon.

Where we really have seen advances over 1960s available tech has been in the matter of avionics. I was stringently cautioned by the authors here against getting too sanguine about it, but surely today we could make a highly reliable autopilot/navigation system that would mass just a few hundred grams and consume a trickle of power, but infallibly guide a Flyer on an optimized trajectory to a feather-soft landing anywhere within its range; just punch in the coordinates. (If they aren't mapped we'd have to include a sensor array, millimetric radar with Doppler capabilities, plus perhaps a visual image processor, to find a perfectly suitable landing spot, and thus also include extra propellant for a hover while it finds the site).

Note that the link you provide to the Bell proposal gives practically no specifications at all--it doesn't say what propellant they wanted to use, how much the flying lawn chair massed, or anything except a bare "80 km range" which I suppose must mean out and back again.

Well, OK, the Moon has an average radius of 1737.1 km (polar radius is a few km smaller, but that's not directly relevant--distance over a particular angle will be greater at the poles, not less, due to Lunar oblateness meaning the poles are relatively flattened, ie lower curvature). And with Wikipedia giving escape velocity, presumably from the surface, as 2380 m/sec, I infer a gravitational potential and thus orbital velocity, at the surface, of -2832200 joules/kg and 1683 m/sec respectively. 80 km circumferential distance implies a half-angle of 0.0231 radians or 1.324 degrees; the orbital energy of the minimum-major axis ellipse that connects a point on the surface to an apolune 40 km away is thus -2768240.8 j/kg, so the kinetic energy on the surface is a bit under 64 kj/kg and the speed would be just under 358 m/sec. That looks very modest, doesn't it? But note that while a gun with this mediocre muzzle velocity would fire a shell to hit some 80 km away (at just the right elevation, that is) we don't want our Flyer to crash at that speed there; we want it to land softly, and that means applying the same delta-V in reverse. Then we want it to come back to base again, which means doing it twice more--total delta-V is thus 1431 m/sec round trip, and that is a big fraction of orbital speed right there.

What sorts of rocket engine and propellant would we have to do the job? Let's say it is a hydrogen-oxygen engine that has exhaust speed exactly 4200, and assume 10 m/sec acceleration, a bit over 1 Earth G, to minimize gravity loss without putting too much stress on anything.

The elevation for a ballistic trajectory with instant acceleration would be just a hair under 45 degrees--45 degrees minus one quarter the angular distance we want to cover actually, which is to say 44 degrees and a bit under 45 minutes in this case. To reach the coasting speed would thus require a 35.8 second burn, in which time we'd "fall" under Lunar surface gravity to a speed of 58 m/sec so we have to actually angle up a bit and thrust harder (to keep the same time of burn, or else burn longer at the same thrust which complicates the computation I'm trying to do here) to counter that. Over the ground we'd travel a bit over 4 and a half km, so actually we'd subtract 9 km from the total distance--or change the problem so we are going to a point 89 km away, which I will do now since otherwise I'd have to iterate back with revised figures. The fact that we rise 4530 meters also while doing this also changes the problem a bit, because now the trajectory is over a virtual surface with radius raised by that amount, hence the angular distance is lowered (as is the Lunar gravity, and potential is raised). The extra 58 m/sec we need to thrust upward on the other hand raises the total delta-V, by 43 m/sec or 12 percent, and I think that is clearly a bigger increment than the other factors deduct (except the first factor, the extra distance we cover during boost). Delta-V is thus actually 400, and we need to do it 4 times, for a total round trip mass factor of exp(1600/4200) of 1.465, or that is to say a fixed payload and structural mass arriving back at base would mass 68.25 percent of the initial launched mass, thus almost a third of that mass would be hydrogen-oxygen fuel.

Now, considering that I slipped in another 9 km range there, and that for a rescue mission we might be able to send the thing out to the accident site empty of payload and that the mass is therefore greatly lowered on the way out, that isn't so Godawful as I feared. But this presumably is why the Bell proposal had that limited range. We're going to want a rescue craft that can go out to 400 km, what does that mission look like?

I estimate each boost is 820 m/sec, or thereabouts; round trip then would be close to 3300 and 55 percent of launch mass would have to be LH2-LOX propellant. This is still feasible in the sense that a reasonable vehicle could be designed to hold all that propellant I suppose, and that a single stock of that much cryogenic fuel might be maintained at a polar base; just keep it in the shade and the hydrogen boil-off would be modest and facilities to re-liquefy it not unreasonable. So keeping an emergency rescue vehicle handy to retrieve two stranded astronauts whose rover-lab breaks down at extreme range is doable; I don't know about cost though.

OTOH using such jump-bugs for routine sorties is clearly problematic. If the propellant were shipped up from Earth, clearly out of the question! Well, we chose the polar site in the first place, among other reasons, to explore the possibility of Lunar in-situ refueling using polar ice, did we not? I'd suggest that while that might be true, we'd use a up a lot of useful water fast wasting it in this fashion, for excursions that are within range of our wheeled vehicles. Whereas to go far out of their range would use even more propellant.

But wait! What about the less efficient option of refining regolith to produce oxygen and pure aluminum, and then making a slurry monopropellant with powdered Al and LOX?

I can't recall right now just what the ISP of that combination was supposed to be; I think it would be a generous overestimate to guess 200. For the round trip to and from the periphery of 400 km, using the above figures, over 80 percent of the initially boosted mass must be propellant--which is to say, a single rocket boosting at 1 G initially would be slamming the returning crew at 5 Gs on their return. The propellant is indefinitely renewable with enough solar power and a big enough investment in refining equipment, and automated refineries with robot regolith-scooping shovel-vehicles might be set up at many points, so with a network of hundreds of them it might be possible to hop along to any point on the Moon. But these robo-refineries would be kept pretty busy! The terrible mass fraction is offset a bit because the propellant combo is quite dense. OTOH a highly efficient pump for the engine is impossible because the powdered Al would grind up the vanes; it has to be pressure fed, using helium or some other noble gas--argon is apparently the most common element in the Lunar atmosphere. The combustion won't be as efficient as it theoretically might be.
...

At least, at any rate, until they can get some of these...

js_warp_Ssm7.jpg

I'll see your Gerry Anderson rocket-pod-kitbash and raise you egregious defiance of basic physics in an allegedly realistic SF classic:

13moonbus.jpg


TV sci-fi shows can play fast and loose all they like; IIRC Moonbase Alpha supposedly had some kind of gravity enhancers to explain why the case wasn't bouncing around--that might have only been in the novelization, I suppose. If they ever mentioned it in viewed canon then they are covered for the Eagles I guess; they might have had some sort of gravity drive.

But 2001 is supposed to be "realistic." Look at that Moonbus though. Or the footage of it hurtling from horizon to horizon; one might then suppose that it is in a suborbital trajectory, right? And the look of the thing is just design aesthetics.

But no...
2001-moonbus.jpg

Here's Heywood Floyd and his minions, walking around inside, pouring coffee, generally demonstrating that that sucker is not in free fall, and those rocket nozzles on the bottom must therefore be constantly firing to levitate the thing.:eek:

If you have delta-V to spare for that, you can just push on to a suborbital trajectory and get their a lot quicker.

In the book of course Clarke has the expedition to TMA-1 happen in a wheeled vehicle (sort of a tread-wheel--a wheel where each of eight or so sections is a separate foot on a strut, the better to deal with rough terrain.

So I just wonder who the arty visionary on Kubrick's staff was who came up with this rocket-bus, and whether they had the slightest clue what was head-bangingly wrong with it, and just didn't care, or whether the knowledge never troubled their pretty little minds. I wonder if it was Kubrick himself, and if so did he know better but decide the audience needed the visual sense of progressive motion, and needed it to be fast and yet obviously moonbound, and physics was just going to have to take a back seat to drama cause of ART.

No question it works emotionally.
 
In the book of course Clarke has the expedition to TMA-1 happen in a wheeled vehicle (sort of a tread-wheel--a wheel where each of eight or so sections is a separate foot on a strut, the better to deal with rough terrain.

Which was, of course, much more realistic, and much more likely - what you'd expect from Clarke.

So I just wonder who the arty visionary on Kubrick's staff was who came up with this rocket-bus, and whether they had the slightest clue what was head-bangingly wrong with it, and just didn't care, or whether the knowledge never troubled their pretty little minds.

This was clearly a point where "visually dramatic" won out over "technically realistic."

Fortunately, 2001 had very few such moments, all things considered.

I admit that it took me a view viewings before I stopped to wonder: Where exactly does that thing store propellant, anyway?

MOON%20BUS%20MAIN.jpg


Pictured: Aborted model planned for sale by model maker Aurora in 1969

All that said, it's curious given how obsessive Kubrick was for detail and plausibility. For example:

Scientific Consultant Fred Ordway, who had worked at NASA before the film, pooled the newest information and technology for Kubrick. “During nearly six months of preproduction planning and design work at our New York Polaris Productions base, six major space vehicles evolved: the Orion III Earth-to-orbit shuttle, Space Station V located in orbit around the Earth, the Aries IB Earth-orbit-to-lunar surface shuttle, the Rocket Bus used to transport men and materials from one part of the Moon to another, the huge Discovery interplanetary spaceship, and its small Space Pod auxiliary reconnaissance-maintenance and local exploration craft. Each of these vehicles was designed with extreme care, for we would later be dealing with full-scale interiors as well as reduced-scale exterior models all of which had to appear absolutely realistic. We insisted on knowing the purpose and functioning of each assembly and component, down to the logical labeling of individual buttons and the presentation on screens of plausible operating, diagnostic and other data. In accomplishing this work, we relied heavily on advice and material provided by the National Aeronautics and Space Administration and by a considerable number of private companies and universities.”

I wonder if this wasn't a case of some NASA engineer suggesting something like' "Hey, a rocket transport that did Oberth Effect hops around the Moon could be useful for extended lunar distance travel," and Kubrick's effects guys transforming that into this "rocket bus."
 
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2001: A Space Odyssey
is most insane movie production in history, in case on effort to make the movie !
as Kubrick left New York to settle production in London
TWENTY SEVEN truck were needed to transport the production Paper work to Freighter in NY harbor

Kubrick order study at most important business: how will look the Future in 2000 ?
IBM, GE, General Motor, Honeywell, Vickers Aircraft, Hawker Siddeley ond others offers concept and Ideas
even he ask NASA and French astronomers about how the moon surface would look like
and mither allot of Antroplogist with question how look our ancestor ?

As Gorge Muller of NASA Marchal Space Flight Center visit the Production and Movie sets, he label it as: NASA EAST.

and to top that
Kubrick order Vickers Aircraft to build a 30 tons centrifuge of Discovery
and order Spacesuits at Frankenstein & Sons who build pressure suits for RAF.
while Hawker Siddeley build spaceships cockpits and designed the Pod interior.

I think Kubrick was on Space race to beat NASA and Soviets and he won...
 
Once again, superb work, Nixon

Thunderbolt is somewhat bigger than I imagined it to be.

Staring at the Proton and Vulkans here, I'm left to wonder (and probably assume) that Roscosmos is eventually going to have the same kinds of quality control problems that they've been experiencing in recent years. I don't think that would be butterflied away.
 
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