"The Bloody Man"

Status
Not open for further replies.
A Union of Republics sounds a bit too idealistic, in terms of the Dutch going along with it. I remember you noting how support was mainly in England, while the Dutch were baffled at the very idea of it coming to pass, ironically matching the English attitude towards a union with Scotland. That said, desperate times can call for desperate measures, but I get the feeling that Lilburne heard an alliance of republics, and assumed it would be a Union. Either that, or the Admiral is making decisions that aren't his to make, which will make for fun times, whichever one is the case. With Naples in an uproar, the Scottish going through their own moral crisis, and now the Hollanders contemplating the impossible, I can see an alliance between the states emerge.

Not a bloc, that suggests too much interlinking bonds and would likely scare too many neighbours (although what could France and Spain really do at this point?), however fun the idea of Britain being the Revolutionary France or Soviet Union of the 1600s might be, even if efforts in France will likely backfire. There could be agreements to open trade with one another and cooperate on certain matters, such as trade, colonies, naval bases, and so on. The Remonstrants, whether they make a deal with the Resolutioneers or not, could form an alliance with the Commonwealth over the internal rebellion and allow for supply lines to actually develop, or at least make a deal to strike at Ireland in the name of taking down Popery and the chances of the King taking revenge on them. The Resolutioneers don't have a King to compromise with, and the spiritual crisis would make things difficult for the Remonstrants, so we may see a deal, but just as likely have the two sides bicker and ineffectually try to destroy the other.

Ireland is another big issue. Lorraine may not want to look that desperate for the Crown, potentially joining the ranks of many who had power in their grasp and let it slip out of fear of looking like they took it without a second thought, but there's always the Cardinal to think about. James is a fifteen year old boy marred in trauma and bitterness, which would make any surrendering of power impossible, but the appeal of being granted the divorce he wanted may shift Lorraine, and the Cardinal may just force a war anyway by his diplomacy via excommunication if that doesn't work. Either way, there's a bloody fight ahead, and that's not even counting England and Scotland's reaction.

In the future, there is the question of Henry, IOTL his time spent in England as a prisoner did lead to him taking in a lot of Parliament's arguments, which led to a vicious break with Henrietta-Maria and got him kicked out of Paris where he joined up with Spain and became pals with the Prince of Conde, an agnostic backer of the Huguenots. Hell, his death of smallpox made him into the idealised 'King England Needed' for opponents of James II, and even for people unhappy with Monmouth. I remember reading that he's in Paris right now, or somewhere with his mother, which suggests that he may be a Catholic counterpart to OTL, down to the military skill, if something happens to James and a new King for the Royalists is needed.

Anyway, by some cosmic coincidence, I had just finished re-reading this TL when you posted this update, and it was good to remind myself on who all the factions were and what exactly was happening all over the area. I had even forgotten about Naples until I read it. The atrocities and chaos of the time, especially with the rise of massacres, factions, and religious sects, does make me understand why Hobbes was all for an absolutist sovereign, when compared to the slaughter, even if it was the fault of Charles and the Covenanters (great band name, BTW) which their determination to ignore reality when it didn't suit them.

It's a bit of a shame that the whole conflict just gets summed up as 'Charles Vs. Parliament, Charles lost and got executed, Cromwell rises', when there's a whole plethora of factions, arguments, and conflicts within the Civil War that make it far more interesting. If you mentioned transvestite monkeys and Prophets who burnt their own faces, you'd probably get a lot more eagerness for the topic than 'okay, pretend you're doing a news article on Charles getting executed/Cromwell banning Christmas'. I imagine the Glorious Revolution, when it is taught, is likely a story that everyone prefers, even if it was technically a successful Dutch invasion, compared to the Civil War and all of its inconvenient events.

Far better to have the crap Catholic tyrant kicked down by Parliament, and replaced by a King invited in so the myth of no invasion since 1066 survives, than to try and go through the mess that is the English Civil War. Everyone with an interest comes out better, that way.

The Bond reference with Blood getting tagged was as great as the 'Spring-Heeled Jack is Batman' snippet from FaBR, it'll certainly make it hard for Blood to drop his membership in the proto-MI6 if things go south, now that the ink won't come off that easily. His goal will probably either be to destabilise the Old English faction, eliminate James or Lorraine, or to try and collect some information on what exactly is happening in Ireland's inner workings, which would rank just under Sisyphus' boulder-pushing in tasks that require a bit of effort.

I'll just add my voice to the choir in saying that this was a great update, and that I can't wait to see what happens next.
 
I imagine the Glorious Revolution, when it is taught, is likely a story that everyone prefers, even if it was technically a successful Dutch invasion, compared to the Civil War and all of its inconvenient events.

Far better to have the crap Catholic tyrant kicked down by Parliament, and replaced by a King invited in so the myth of no invasion since 1066 survives, than to try and go through the mess that is the English Civil War. Everyone with an interest comes out better, that way.

Actually, the more ideological Tories started muttering about a "Dutch invasion" when it turned out things were going further than they'd hoped very quickly. That their version is now kicked around as a revisionist take on the revolution is just one of history's little ironies.
 
Actually, the more ideological Tories started muttering about a "Dutch invasion" when it turned out things were going further than they'd hoped very quickly. That their version is now kicked around as a revisionist take on the revolution is just one of history's little ironies.

I know today's reactionaries tend to be yesterday's revolutionaries, but I didn't think they'd be tomorrow's revolutionaries as well. :p

But yeah, I do support the Glorious Revolution's intent, especially as James II seemed to make Charles I sound reasonable, it's more the myth of Britain being a fortress against the forces of Europe since 1066 that baffles me, and how the ECW tends to be swept under the carpet and its positive achievements are given to the GR. After all, we have the barons calling the King of France in over John I, and William of Orange being given the crown in exchange for helping kick out James and be the King that Parliament wanted for decades. A nice mutual power-grab that ensured that Britain would finally be free from the Stuarts and their fetishism for absolutist rule. Mind you, from the general record of the Stuart family as a whole, it sounds like James I was the only competent one out of the lot.
 
I know today's reactionaries tend to be yesterday's revolutionaries, but I didn't think they'd be tomorrow's revolutionaries as well. :p

But yeah, I do support the Glorious Revolution's intent, especially as James II seemed to make Charles I sound reasonable, it's more the myth of Britain being a fortress against the forces of Europe since 1066 that baffles me, and how the ECW tends to be swept under the carpet and its positive achievements are given to the GR.

The pushing of the Civil War into the background REALLY started happening around the time of the French Revolution. (Remember--British monarchs started spending a lot of time staring at Charles I's order of execution post-Glorious Revolution, and quite a few Parliamentary Radicals liked to keep their own copies.) After that, suddenly the zeitgeist went from "Hey, remember that time we had the king killed?" "Yeah, that was AWESOME!" to "Crazy crap like that never happens here. Except for the one time it did, but we're going to ignore that, mostly." While it sort of shifted back and forth afterwards, the British went from being seen as firebrands who had to be placated to being seen as staid conservatives who would never dream of raising a fuss.

No matter how many times they in fact raised a fuss.


After all, we have the barons calling the King of France in over John I, and William of Orange being given the crown in exchange for helping kick out James and be the King that Parliament wanted for decades.

And Henry VII, for that matter.

Britain was never QUITE as isolated from the Continent as it liked to imagine.

A nice mutual power-grab that ensured that Britain would finally be free from the Stuarts and their fetishism for absolutist rule. Mind you, from the general record of the Stuart family as a whole, it sounds like James I was the only competent one out of the lot.

Pretty much.

Charles II has his fans, but much of that comes from being a pleasant guy, on a personal level, who said funny things. As a king... he was generally less than stellar.
 
I'd just like to add to the chorus of people glad to see this back.

Admittedly, I'm kind of dreading where you'll go with this in time. I recognize that Ireland has a slew of disadvantages from a geopolitical and internal standpoint to avoid domination by English/Scottish forces(especially because the French and Spanish really enjoy that mercenary population that comes their way when the Irish have little choice...), but even with the potential for greater tolerance of religious difference, the millenialist Protestants leave a bad taste in my mouth and I find myself rooting for the Duke of Lorraine to screw over the Nuncio and King and just take over Ireland himself with some sort of exhaustion peace with the Commonwealth.

It won't happen, but I can dream.
 
Nice Flashman reference!

I suspect things are about to go badly for the Irish. The Scottish are in disarray, the English overstretched, the Irish have never had a better chance at an independent crown- but that's still long odds.
To say nothing of the fact that when you're being led by a Stuart, the smart money isn't on you.
 
Got to love the mixture of Bond and esoteric Puritain theology. How historical is this Kuklos anyway? Normally I'd assume absolutely everything, but google doesn't seem to be showing anything by that name in the period.

Also, reading the update, for a second I parsed it as Charles' appointing Lorraine the Viceroy of Scotland. Which would be one way to blow things up in a hurry.

I think Lilburne's reach might exceed his grasp with France. I mean, a De jure union with the Netherlands (with the two in reality being basically independent under a loose Republican version of a Personal Union) might possibly work, but radical republicans were kind of sparse on the ground in France at the time, weren't they?
 
Great update, as usual!

Your response to my comment about Spain got me thinking. With every European power west of the Rhine in disarray, who stands to benefit? Not Spain, apparently, though Philip IV's subjects in the New World might get a respite if the fleets of France, the Netherlands and "Britain" are busy sending each other into the depths of the English Channel.

Sweden and the Holy Roman Empire would seem to be the logical choices, except they are in a state of war. Sweden is probably too exhausted to capitalize on the continuation of the War, especially if they have Austria's undivided attention. They can, however, further damage northern Germany, and keep the Habsburgs entirely sidelined. The German states can only suffer further from a Thirty Years' war that has no end in sight.

A later day Ibn Battuta-type figure travelling through Europe ITTL would find very little to celebrate in Western Europe, with almost the entire continent the scene of hot and cold wars.
 
Last edited:
Great update, as usual!

Your response to my comment about Spain got me thinking. With every European power west of the Rhine in disarray, who stands to benefit? Not Spain, apparently, though Philip IV's subjects in the New World might get a respite if the fleets of France, the Netherlands and "Britain" are busy sending each other into the depths of the English Channel.

Sweden and the Holy Roman Empire would seem to be the logical choices, except they are in a state of war. Sweden is probably too exhausted to capitalize on the continuation of the War, especially if they have Austria's undivided attention. They can, however, further damage northern Germany, and keep the Habsburgs entirely sidelined. The German states can only suffer further from a Thirty Years' war that has no end in site.

A later day Ibn Battuta-type figure travelling through Europe ITTL would find very little to celebrate in Western Europe, with almost the entire continent the scene of hot and cold wars.

Eastern Europe? If France is that distracted, and the 30YW isn't winding down... Austria could do well. If Austria does well, that bodes ill for its other rivals, like Poland and the Turk.

Russo-Austrian alliance for the win? I always root for strong Russia, and Sweden is weaker too if you are correct (then again, spoilers of a New Sweden suggest that might survive a bit longer, even under non-Swedish control)
 
Great update, as usual!

Your response to my comment about Spain got me thinking. With every European power west of the Rhine in disarray, who stands to benefit? Not Spain, apparently, though Philip IV's subjects in the New World might get a respite if the fleets of France, the Netherlands and "Britain" are busy sending each other into the depths of the English Channel.

Sweden and the Holy Roman Empire would seem to be the logical choices, except they are in a state of war. Sweden is probably too exhausted to capitalize on the continuation of the War, especially if they have Austria's undivided attention. They can, however, further damage northern Germany, and keep the Habsburgs entirely sidelined. The German states can only suffer further from a Thirty Years' war that has no end in site.

A later day Ibn Battuta-type figure travelling through Europe ITTL would find very little to celebrate in Western Europe, with almost the entire continent the scene of hot and cold wars.

IIRC, OTL Poland-Lithuania was starting to enter its long decline at around this time, but everyone to the west spending another decade killing each other can't be bad for them.
 
IIRC, OTL Poland-Lithuania was starting to enter its long decline at around this time, but everyone to the west spending another decade killing each other can't be bad for them.

Didn't their economy depend on grain exports to the West? If trade is disrupted by all these wars, they would be affected.
 
Can someone post a link to the post with Chapter 35 on it please (and only that post). My library's idiotic firewall is blocking page 81 of this thread for some reason. :mad:
 
Mind you, from the general record of the Stuart family as a whole, it sounds like James I was the only competent one out of the lot.
I think you are grossly overestimating the competence of James I.

Really, the thing that has always amused me about the Jacobins is that they were rebelling in favor of a universally incompetent dynasty, against a dynasty that, for all its usurpation, saw the UK reach its zenith. William III was one of the most competent men to ever sit on the English throne, and for all the problems of the Hanoverians, they were still significantly more successful than the Stuarts (even when George III was literally insane).
 
I think you are grossly overestimating the competence of James I.

Really, the thing that has always amused me about the Jacobins is that they were rebelling in favor of a universally incompetent dynasty, against a dynasty that, for all its usurpation, saw the UK reach its zenith. William III was one of the most competent men to ever sit on the English throne, and for all the problems of the Hanoverians, they were still significantly more successful than the Stuarts (even when George III was literally insane).

I think that's a bit of an exaggeration, while the Hannoverians in the broader sense George I-Victoria (who was a member of the House of Hannover) saw Britain rise to it's pinnacle of power and prestige post 1715 they weren't ruling in the way the Stuarts or William of Orange had. They were reigning and letting politicians like Walpole and Pitt actually run things.

Also I think Charles II was a very successful monarch. Considering how hopeless things looked when hiding up an oak tree from the New Model Army in the aftermath of Worcester the fact that when he died in 1685 the treasury was full, the economy was booming and the country was at peace. He had spent the last few years successfully reigning without Parliament, he had used the Rye House plot to smash his opponents in the Whigs and ensured that his brother would succeed him on the throne, had enforced something as close to a religious truce as you were ever going to get in the 17th century. All in all he wasn't a great King but he was a pretty good one.
 
Top
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top