Texas never annexed by the United States

Questions
What would be the Texan Position on the American Civil War
Would Mexico Hold California
Would Alaska still be russian
 
however

do you think that texas could have remained independent for long and also does this give the mormons in utah a chance to form a theological state
 

Anaxagoras

Banned
do you think that texas could have remained independent for long and also does this give the mormons in utah a chance to form a theological state

They could have remained independent if they had formed a close alliance with the British. Indeed, Houston was moving in this direction as a means to spook the United States into agreeing to annex Texas. Had the annexation again failed, an Anglo-Texan alliance could easily have been the result.

Not sure about the Mormon connection.
 
What would be the Texan Position on the American Civil War
Texas was against slavery if I remember correctly. I'm not sure (hope i'm right). If so, then if my memory is correct on the first point, then they would have stayed a union state. But most likely, being an independant nation, they would not have to choose a side.

Would Mexico Hold California
Yes. Without Texas as a major US point, which later led to our invasion of Mexico and us getting all we wanted, they would hold California without any trade.

Would Alaska still be russian
I don't see the revelance of this to the above questions. Nothing would change by Texas not being part of the US of A.
 

Jasen777

Donor
Texas was against slavery if I remember correctly. I'm not sure (hope i'm right).

Texas was pro-slavery.


Yes. Without Texas as a major US point, which later led to our invasion of Mexico and us getting all we wanted, they would hold California without any trade.

It's only a matter of time until California is lost to a settler revolt, if not to a foreign power. The Mexican government is simply too screwed up, and California is too far away from Mexico City.


JohnnyHampton said:
does this give the mormons in utah a chance to form a theological state

The Mormons might try, and they're probably safe from Mexico. They are less well positioned than Texas though and the U.S. would be more likely to be hostile...
 
Texas was pro-slavery demo. We just weren't as dependent on it economically as say Georgia and Alabama were. With the exception Central Tejas (Brazos Valley, current College Station area) which was (and still is) a big cotton area, geography dicated that slavery wouldn't be as big here as it was in the SE.
 
Texas was pro-slavery demo. We just weren't as dependent on it economically as say Georgia and Alabama were. With the exception Central Tejas (Brazos Valley, current College Station area) which was (and still is) a big cotton area, geography dicated that slavery wouldn't be as big here as it was in the SE.

Nevertheless, Texas was the ONLY Confederate State which, in it's declaration issued by it's secession convention giving the reasons for it's secession, stated that...

She was received as a commonwealth holding, maintaining and protecting the institution known as negro slavery - the servitude of the African to the white race within her limits - a relation that had existed from the first settlement of her wilderness by the white race, and which her people intended should exist in all future time.

In other words, they were seceding because they thought slavery was the natural condition of the negro and because it was their intention to hold the negro in slavery forever! This is, by far, the most extreme pro-slavery statement found in ANY of the Confederate declarations of secession.

So obviously slavery was pretty important to them.

I personally think that Texas would have remained neutral in the Civil War and allowed itself to be used as an unblockadeable port of entry for war goods into the Confederacy. If she had forged an alliance with Britain in the meantime, I think she would have used whatever influence she had to try to persuade Britain to more actively support, and even recognize, the Confederacy.

As to whether that would have helped the Confederacy win, who knows? Without Texas troops directly involved in the war, the Confederacy would have had even greater manpower shortages than it did in OTL. But then, if the Confederacy had been able to fully arm the men it did have early on, it might have been able to achieve the "knock-out blow" that eluded it on several occasions in the first two years of the war. So Texas neutrality could have been decisive.
 
i somehow think that an independent Texas today would be much like an Arab oil state- an ill-educated populace kept afloat by cushy oil-related jobs in an economy rife with corruption and a semi-theocratic form of government.
 
i somehow think that an independent Texas today would be much like an Arab oil state- an ill-educated populace kept afloat by cushy oil-related jobs in an economy rife with corruption and a semi-theocratic form of government.

You mean -- it's not that now? [cheap shot I know--but couldn't resist! :p]
 
Nevertheless, Texas was the ONLY Confederate State which, in it's declaration issued by it's secession convention giving the reasons for it's secession, stated that...

In other words, they were seceding because they thought slavery was the natural condition of the negro and because it was their intention to hold the negro in slavery forever! This is, by far, the most extreme pro-slavery statement found in ANY of the Confederate declarations of secession.

So obviously slavery was pretty important to them.

All of the above is completely correct and I don't mean to disagree with it. I do mean however to point that there's something of an important difference between the demographic make-up and mentality of Texas pre and post annexation.

Pre-annexation Texas was still almot a bi-ethnic state, with a lot of Tejano influence (eg Juan Seguin). The right to keep Santa Anna from taking their slaves away was a big reason why Anglos supported the Texas Revolution, but not why the Tejano communities came around. Nevertheless, the Republic's constitution did enact protections for slavery (much like a Southern state did at the same time).

However, after annexation, Texas saw huges waves of white settlement which transformed whites into the dominant class / group. The lion's share of that settlement came from the South and increased the extent of slavery in the state (mostly because annexation proved a boon to the Texas economy, stablized the monetary and financial systems, and provided for security).

A Texas that isn't annexed probably won't see as much immigration from the Southern US. It may well see increased amounts of foreign immigrants (Germans, Irish) if the US goes more nativist and Texas becomes an easier haven. In any case, the differing demographic would mean that slavery might have a different future. That being said, Texas will hang on to slavery for quite a while, if it can. However, it will be even more at the mercy of potential British pressure for abolition than a surviving CSA (though of course the British might well not exert such pressure).
 
i somehow think that an independent Texas today would be much like an Arab oil state- an ill-educated populace kept afloat by cushy oil-related jobs in an economy rife with corruption and a semi-theocratic form of government.

I can't imagine how Texas would take on any theocratic elements, though. I'm not criticizing, I just can't think of any way for it to happen.
 
All of the above is completely correct and I don't mean to disagree with it. I do mean however to point that there's something of an important difference between the demographic make-up and mentality of Texas pre and post annexation.

Pre-annexation Texas was still almot a bi-ethnic state, with a lot of Tejano influence (eg Juan Seguin). The right to keep Santa Anna from taking their slaves away was a big reason why Anglos supported the Texas Revolution, but not why the Tejano communities came around. Nevertheless, the Republic's constitution did enact protections for slavery (much like a Southern state did at the same time).

However, after annexation, Texas saw huges waves of white settlement which transformed whites into the dominant class / group. The lion's share of that settlement came from the South and increased the extent of slavery in the state (mostly because annexation proved a boon to the Texas economy, stablized the monetary and financial systems, and provided for security).

A Texas that isn't annexed probably won't see as much immigration from the Southern US. It may well see increased amounts of foreign immigrants (Germans, Irish) if the US goes more nativist and Texas becomes an easier haven. In any case, the differing demographic would mean that slavery might have a different future. That being said, Texas will hang on to slavery for quite a while, if it can. However, it will be even more at the mercy of potential British pressure for abolition than a surviving CSA (though of course the British might well not exert such pressure).

All of what you say regarding the pre-annexation demographics of Texas is certainly true. I disagree that a Texas which isn't annexed would see much less in the way of Southern immigration into it, however. A Texas which is not annexed by the U.S. most likely ends up in some sort of alliance with Britain to provide security , and has British investment capital to stabilize the economy. Texas simply lies across the natural axis of movement by settlers from the South (there is a well-established theory that people in one climatic zone tend strongly to migrate within that same zone...that's one very large reason why so many Scandinavians ended up in Minnesota, for example). So for Southerners to avoid Texas and head for more northerly climes would go against their natural tendencies during migration.
 

Faeelin

Banned
i somehow think that an independent Texas today would be much like an Arab oil state- an ill-educated populace kept afloat by cushy oil-related jobs in an economy rife with corruption and a semi-theocratic form of government.

Why?

Stereotypes aside, this makes little sense.
 
All of what you say regarding the pre-annexation demographics of Texas is certainly true. I disagree that a Texas which isn't annexed would see much less in the way of Southern immigration into it, however. A Texas which is not annexed by the U.S. most likely ends up in some sort of alliance with Britain to provide security , and has British investment capital to stabilize the economy. Texas simply lies across the natural axis of movement by settlers from the South (there is a well-established theory that people in one climatic zone tend strongly to migrate within that same zone...that's one very large reason why so many Scandinavians ended up in Minnesota, for example). So for Southerners to avoid Texas and head for more northerly climes would go against their natural tendencies during migration.

A very good point. I think a lot would be determined by developments in the US; I tend to associate a non-annexation of Texas with a more potent nativist movement in the US in the 1850s. This should shunt some direct immigration from Europe to Texas (and elsewhere): for example, a substantial number of Germans came directly to Texas in the 1840s (an area of the Hill Country had enough German settlers that "Texas German" is considered a dialect (by some). Movements such as this would tend to dillute the extent to which Southern culture emerged in Texas.
 

Valdemar II

Banned
I think that a independent Texas is going to look rather like Argentina, just with two primary export instead of one, in Texas case it's going to ranching and oil. Emigration wise they're goint prefer Protestants which mean a lot of Germans and some English, but American immigrant especially southern is lilely going to be the biggest group. So a Argentina where immigrantwise the Spanish is replaced by Americans, Italians by Germans and Germans by British Protestants. It will likely suffer the same lack of focus on Industry, but I think it will stay democratic thanks to the American tradition for that.
 
Texas will remained independent country and since Texas is pro-slavery, I think after the American Civil War, most slave owners will transfer to Texas since Texas is a pro-slavery country together with their some slaves from the United States.
 
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