Ideas for an independent Deseret timeline

Hnau

Banned
It's funny, there's really little room for an independent Deseret in history. The Mormons never wanted their own country, just their own state. Furthermore, ever since 1833 they have preached that the Constitution of the United States was designed by God in order to provide protection to the Last Dispensation (the LDS Church). The American Revolution was a sacred event designed by God, and the Founding Fathers are widely regarded as members of the Church (baptized by proxy after death).

To get an independent Deseret, you'd need to go back all the way to 1833 or earlier for a POD, and I'm not sure how all of that would work out. The Mormons wanted to seem patriotic instead of anti-American, to garner favor with their neighbours... in order to take their patriotism out of their doctrine, the Mormons would have to be accepted by common Americans... which simply couldn't be done considering the basic foundation of the Church: the Book of Mormon and ideas of becoming Gods after death.

I've got a few ideas for an independent Deseret...

- The easiest way is to engineer a revolution from inside Mexico's empty territory while it still holds onto the Southwest. This requires two things: a higher Mormon population base and no Mexican-American War.

- A President Harrison or President Clay timeline could allow the Mormons time enough to revolt and seize Mexican territory for themselves.

- How to get a higher population base?

- Remove polygamy from the Church: more members.
- Remove all successors to Joseph Smith as prophets other than Brigham Young: less members fall away to other splinter movements.
- No Kirtland Safety Society means the Banking Crisis of 1837 doesn't bankrupt Mormons in Kirtland, which means that the membership in Kirtland doesn't rebel against Joseph Smith.

- Other ideas that could be useful in prolonging an independent Deseret:

- An independent Texas with all of its claims as a buffer state to the United States.
- Mexico wracked by an earlier, more terrible Reform War.
- Deseret includes California, Nevada, Arizona and other areas that in OTL were purchased in the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo other than the territory claimed by Texas.
- An Oregon War to chastise the United States?

I'd like to finish this up by asking if anyone has ever outlined a timeline with an independent Deseret. It's such a cliche, so common, but I doubt people understand the issues behind Mormon-American relations.

Any other good ideas? Would this be an interesting timeline?
 

HueyLong

Banned
It's funny, there's really little room for an independent Deseret in history. The Mormons never wanted their own country, just their own state. Furthermore, ever since 1833 they have preached that the Constitution of the United States was designed by God in order to provide protection to the Last Dispensation (the LDS Church). The American Revolution was a sacred event designed by God, and the Founding Fathers are widely regarded as members of the Church (baptized by proxy after death).

Wait, they actually did this? This kind of explains that book I posted about that connects every single US President to the LDS Church.

Is there a list of famous baptized dead?
 

Hnau

Banned
There is, but I forget where.

Actually, I was just in the St. George Temple in Utah doing baptisms for the dead in the same baptismal room where Wilford Woodruff was said to have met the spirits of the Founding Fathers, led by George Washington and Benjamin Franklin, who requested immediate work to be done for them. That night Woodruff was baptized in proxy for more than one hundred important men involved in the creation of the United States.
 

Jasen777

Donor
They don't really need more population if the U.S. stays out of the region (that would take some doing). They're really too far away for Mexico to project much force against them. And it's not like Mexico was brimming with effective leadership at the time.
 

Hnau

Banned
I guess what I'm worrying about most is the imminent Gold Rush that could create expansionist desires throughout the US.
 

Hnau

Banned
Here are some of the most direct verses in the Doctrine and Covenants (revelations through the prophet Joseph Smith) that establish the United States of America as a 'holy and just land'. Also note that with these passages, the Mormons would not be able to fight against the USA, because the Lord promises that if the US continues to ignore their plight and the Mormons cannot find redress, He will strike them down with a calamity.

Which makes me wonder, as a Mormon, why we had to give up polygamy to survive as a people (in OTL, President Woodruff claimed to have been given a vision of an alternate timeline in which the Mormons did not give up polygamy, in which the US army occupied Utah and forced them to destroy their temples). God should have struck down the United States with a calamity... then again, even if that happened, and the USA accepted polygamy, other nations would probably still rebuke us... therefore: polygamy was a temporary policy to build up the Mormon population and force the Saints to emigrate to Utah, and the United States, a holy government, held the authority from on high to put an end to the practice.

I explain these things so that you can see the situation from a Mormon's point of view for the creation of the timeline, nothing else intended.

Without the 1833 verses, there is nothing to pull back the more violent Mormons (the Danites, specifically) from terrorizing Missouri and other areas. It would be more acceptable in the LDS Church to be anti-American and rebellious in order to secure rights to worship. The Mormon Wars in Missouri, Illinois and elsewhere could be more violent, which probably means an earlier Mormon Exodus... which means more of an opportunity to develop the future territory of Deseret!

But about polygamy... it really did provide the needed hostility between the Saints and their opponents to begin the Mormon Exodus. Without polygamy, the Saints could very well just stay in the United States.
 

HueyLong

Banned
There is, but I forget where.

Actually, I was just in the St. George Temple in Utah doing baptisms for the dead in the same baptismal room where Wilford Woodruff was said to have met the spirits of the Founding Fathers, led by George Washington and Benjamin Franklin, who requested immediate work to be done for them. That night Woodruff was baptized in proxy for more than one hundred important men involved in the creation of the United States.

Wait, I thought they'd quit doing baptism for the dead?
 

Hnau

Banned
Wait, I thought they'd quit doing baptism for the dead?

Nope, still very much an integral practice in the LDS Church. You have an interview with the Bishop, and if he feels you are worthy enough, you get a Temple Recommend in order to enter the temple. You either find your own names of dead people to be baptised in proxy for, or the temple staff provides them. You go in in the Temple, and change into baptismal clothing (all-white underwear, jumpsuit). From that point, a Melchizedek Priesthood-holder will baptise another person in the baptismal font for different people. Then you dry off, change into your normal clothes, and go home. Very spiritual experience, not at all weird.

By the way, here is the Flag of Deseret (OTL). The Blue and White stand for different things, no one interpretation. The central star could be God, or the Prophet while the surrounding stars could represent the 12 tribes of Israel or the 12 Apostles. As a national flag, the twelve stars and twelve bars represent perfection and order. The blue represents endurance and faith, while white represents purity.

Flag of Deseret.PNG
 
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Which makes me wonder, as a Mormon, why we had to give up polygamy to survive as a people (in OTL, President Woodruff claimed to have been given a vision of an alternate timeline in which the Mormons did not give up polygamy, in which the US army occupied Utah and forced them to destroy their temples). God should have struck down the United States with a calamity... then again, even if that happened, and the USA accepted polygamy, other nations would probably still rebuke us... therefore: polygamy was a temporary policy to build up the Mormon population and force the Saints to emigrate to Utah, and the United States, a holy government, held the authority from on high to put an end to the practice.

Polygamy is going to have little to do with increasing Mormon population growth. The most limiting factors are 1) the fecundity of women and 20 the potency of men

1) Maximum rate is about one pregnancy per two years, which is what primitive farming communities attain irrespective of the number of wives per husband. In contrast hunter gatherers have one pregnancy per four years so that the previous child does not need to be carried. They achieve this by a number of means including abortion and extended lactation. Modern societies use conception to reduce the number of pregnancies.

2) The older a man is the less fertile he is lightly to be so mating the elders of a society with the younger women is on balance going to reduce the number of pregnancies. Of course in evolutionary terms you may be producing fitter children. On the other hand there are more mutations in older than younger sperm so you may not be.

Given that fecundity is unaffected and potency is if anything going to be reduced, on balance polygamy is going to cause the Mormon population as fast as it might have. It is certainly not going to increase it.
 

Highlander

Banned
Wait, I thought they'd quit doing baptism for the dead?

Oh yes, they still do that. You can have your family history completely researched by the Church, as well; the catch is, they "baptize" them.

Not to mention when they got a hold of Holocaust records . . .


@Hnau: some interesting concepts; have you considered what would happen if they had stayed in the Great Lakes area?
 

Hnau

Banned
The Mormons in the Great Lakes area would have faced persecution again and again. They tried living in the United States for 15 long years, and continually had to move farther and farther into the wilderness. I doubt any state would be willing to give them a home... by the 1840s their membership was as large as 30,000 to 40,000, and because Mormons vote as a bloc (which still pisses off American Idol spectators), congregate in clusters, and practice polygamy... every state will throw them out again and again. The Great Lakes area would have been impossible, unless they moved into the Minnesota Territory... where the situation would probably spiral out of control in a decade's time.

Brigham Young was considering also Texas, Mexico, and Oregon as areas to relocate the Saints. However, Utah was a fantastic choice due to its isolation, which allowed the LDS Church the years they needed to develop into a stable organization. That's why we believe that the Great Basin area was designed by God for this sole intent, to safeguard the Mormons in their infancy.
 

Hnau

Banned
So, I've been running through the statistics and figures and realize that there is no way the Mormons could realistically hold on to (northern) California. The Gold Rush brings in 300,000 individualists and entrepreneurs, largely Americans in OTL. Even if we delay the discovery of gold to 1855 (low-probability with the higher population in the region) and put into place enough restrictions so that only half of the gold-seekers arrive... pro-independence group would still outnumber the Mormons until 1865!

I've pushed the factors to their limits, and even then its not enough for Deseret to hold onto California.

What I suggest instead is Deseretian Revolution in the year 1850 that brings John Sutter and Brigham Young together in a rebellion to seize northwest Mexican territory as a sovereign republic. With a few more butterflies, including independent Texan intervention and a Reformist revolt in Mexico, the Commonwealth of Deseret attains its independence by 1852.

During the Revolution, there are conflicts between Sutterville and Salt Lake City, each desires to be the capital of the forthcoming Commonwealth, and each faction funds different armies. There are 4000 Mormons living in California by 1852, mostly in the bustling port of Yerba Buena, and so it seems that Sutter will be subjected to Mormon dominance.

However, Sutter is alerted to the presence of gold in 1851 in the nearby American River. He's kept it a secret, but in 1852 he declares it openly, eager to attract secular immigrants in order to tip the scale in the bipolar Commonwealth. It proves to be more successful than Sutter hoped: 300,000 new immigrants within seven years.

Salt Lake City authorities try to keep order even though the Commonwealth has been split into two 'provinces' since the beginning. The Mormons are overwhelmed. The gold-seekers do not pay their taxes to SLC, brothels and prostitution is rampant, vigilante mobs spar with Mormon vanguards, while it remains impossible to keep the immigrants outside of Deseret.

John Sutter discovers that his political game has escaped his control: the miners strip him of his authority and raise a Californian flag over Sutterville and even Yerba Buena, chasing the Mormons out of a city that just a decade ago was majority LDS. The gold-seekers desire a free state where they'll be able to make money. Though violent and powerful, the Californians are disorganized and unable to push for as much territory as their population demands.

In the Treaty of St. George of 1855, the Californian Free State is recognized by the Commonwealth of Deseret, with a northern border at 42 degrees N latitude and 119 degrees W longitude, giving Deseret access to the sea through OTL Los Angeles and Sea of Cortez.

It would be interesting to explore a Californian Free State. I'm thinking that in the beginning it will be a libertarian's wet dream, with gold-seekers and merchants advocating free markets and little government influence on affairs.
 
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What if Joesph Smith doesn't die and he leads his army to conquer DC and resotre the Founding Fathers divine will? He makes the LDS the official church of the USA with something like tolerance for some churches. Smith's teachings about slaves would have southerners happy and if he could get enough converts. We could have the entire USA turn into a crazy mormon theocracy!
 

Hnau

Banned
Alright, a draft.

1833
For whatever reason, Joseph Smith does not establish the doctrine that the Constitution and the United States of America were designed by God.

1836 - 1838
Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon due not pursue the creation of a 'Mormon bank', the Kirtland Safety Society.

The Banking Crisis of 1837 hits the United States. Kirtland isn't as bankrupt as in OTL, but the populace is still wounded economically. In 1838, with the break-away of a few hundreds of members, Joseph Smith leads more than 1,000 members to regroup in Far West, Missouri. Around this time, the Danites are formed.

1839 - 1840
The Missouri Mormon War
With a slightly higher population, there are slightly more conflicts, but the end result is the same. The leadership of the Church of Christ is imprisoned for a short time, while the membership regroups in Nauvoo, Illinois along the Mississippi River. Let's say someone gets the idea to drain the swampland from the very beginning, instead of letting disease fester among the refugees. This would increase the amount of members.

In the Republic of Texas, Sam Houston dies of yellow fever (which did hit the city of Houston in 1839). Lamar, ever-popular Texan nationalist takes power.

I'm going to throw in this butterfly: at the Battle of Yungay, General Manuel Bulnes is defeated by Confederate soldiers. The Chilean-Argentinian victory in this battle was a fluke of history, they faced enormous odds. This means that the Peru-Bolivian Confederation is not dissolved.

1841 - 1843
Sidney Rigdon dies due to poor health (much earlier than in OTL, but he did have poor health at this time). He won't be challenging Brigham Young for leadership of the Church. Polygamy is taught for the first time. Nauvoo becomes a bustling city that in 1842 possesses a population as high as the capital, Chicago. I've calculated a total increase of about 3,400 souls from OTL. Joseph Smith becomes a martyr earlier during the following events: he is captured by Illinois militia in 1843, to be imprisoned for destroying an anti-Mormon printing press, but before he can be brought to jail, a lodge they are staying at is surrounded by an anti-Mormon vigilante mob, who kills the Prophet and the Illinois militia. Good propaganda piece. Brigham Young takes control a year earlier.

President William Harrison doesn't die of a cold and institutes the American System due to his loyalty to the Whig Party. There's a Third Bank of the United States and a high protectionist tariff (45% !) that leaves Northerners ecstatic and the Southerners furious.

Kenneth Anderson becomes the President of Texas. There is a successful expedition to Sante Fe to secure the Texan claim on the area. The Republic of Texas benefits from the high Harrison Tariff by opening up its economy to European investors.

Manuel Bulnes is never elected president of Chile due to his defeat in the recent war. Reformist Manuel Montt instead takes the presidency.

1844
A lot of exciting events get underway. Sam Brannan leaves with 330 Mormons from New York City to Yerba Buena where he will help develop the region and assert Mormon influence over the land. Brigham Young leaves for the Great Basin region and arrives that summer, three years earlier than OTL.

Van Buren runs against Henry Clay in the US presidential election. Clay wins re-election by a few electoral votes.

In the Republic of Texas, Lamarite John Richard Archer defeats Edward Burleson for the presidency.

1845 - 1849
Porter Rockwell, Joseph Smith's former bodyguard, leads an expedition throughout the Southwest to look for good colony sites. The Mormons will need such mapping projects. The Exodus begins in earnest. There are 42,000 members, compared to 30,000 of OTL.

The Native Americans in the Great Basin region establish good relations with the Mormons. Without the non-Mormon settlers of OTL, they will keep such a strong relationship. The Ute chief Wakara is baptized into the Church.

Mormon emigration into California invigorates the region. John Sutter founds the city of Sutterville on the site of his New Helvetia domain. OTL Las Vegas and the Inland Empire areas are the site of new budding Mormon colonies.

President Clay allocates $100,000 to settle free blacks in Liberia. Iowa becomes a state in 1846. Wisconsin becomes a state in 1848, upsetting the balance between free and slave states. Clay wins re-election against Lewis Cass when the Democratic Party is split by the Free Soil Party. His platform includes legitimizing the "unquestionable" American claim to the Oregon country.

Peter Bell defeats J. Pinckney Henderson in the Texan presidential election.

In the Peruvian-Bolivian Confederacy, Supreme Protector Santa Cruz forces the legislature to allow him an extra two years of rule, to 1849. Meanwhile, British investment into the guano mining industry begins yielding profits for the region. By 1849, the Supreme Protector Laws are issued to the Confederacy, outlining a system to select a Supreme Protector for a term of seven years. It gives the former Supreme Protector a great deal of power in deciding his heir. As such, popular liberal Ramon Castilla takes up the former mantle of Santa Cruz.

In Mexico, President Joaquin de Herrera is overthrown in a military coup. Ultraconservative ultranationalist Mariano Paredes y Arrillaga takes power. The Moderado faction is created from dissatisfied extremes of the Liberales and Conservadores. In 1848, Benito Juarez drafts the Plan de Ayutla, which causes a revolt against the Conservadores throughout Mexico. A year later, the Moderados take power and hold a Constituent Assembly, electing Ignacio Comonfort as President of Mexico.

The Yucatan declares independence once more in 1849.

1850
Yerba Buena has a population of 2,000, the majority of which are Mormons. It becomes a port used frequently by British merchants. In response to the Anglo population boom in Alta California, Mexico sends soldiers to assail Mormon colonies in the San Bernardino area. This agitates Mormons in Yerba Buena, who link up with local Mexican Liberales and declare intentions for a new constitution, though extremists voice desires for independence. Lands held by the Catholic Church is seized throughout the region. The Republic of Alta California is declared in Sonoma.

President Henry Clay dies, with VP Millard Fillmore taking his place. Border disputes over Oregon escalate: Fillmore announces a one-year notice to the British for the termination of the Oregon treaty. Neither side will compromise.

Peter Bell is re-elected as President of Texas, after a law is passed allowing Presidents of Texas to run for a second term.

The Mexican Civil War
Ignacio Comonfort and Benito Juarez declare the Constitution of 1850, including numerous liberal reforms and establishing religious freedom. Without the Mexican-American War, the Conservadores react even worse than OTL. However, five months later, President Comonfort throws Benito Juarez into prison, fearing a Conservadore coup. Even this does not sooth his worries, as in November he flees the capital after freeing all of the Liberale prisoners in Mexico City. Conservadore Felix Zuloaga, after being appointed president by an illegal Congress, seizes Mexico City and repeals the reforms of the new constitution. Benito Juarez creates a government in exile in San Louis Potosi.

1851
In the Columbian Compromise, slavery is abolished in Washington D.C., but a stronger Slave Fugitive Law is passed, placating the southerners just barely enough.

The date for coming to a resolution on the Oregon boundary dispute passes. The United States and the British Empire freeze the date to put the issue before international arbitration. Tensions are very high.

A race war between Mayans and European Yucatecos begins in the Yucatan.

The Deseretian Revolution
With news of a civil war exploding in Mexico City, movements begin throughout Alta California to secede from Mexico. In August, President of the LDS Church Brigham Young declares the Commonwealth of Deseret. That September, General Andres Rico begins the first battle of the Deseretian Revolution by leading a 200-man army to take Los Angeles, which succeeds.

In October, Salt Lake City emissaries arrive in Austin, Texas to plead for military aid. At the same time, they agree to partitioning certain Mexican territories.

In November, John Sutter discovers his workers have discovered large gold deposits in the nearby American River, and decides to keep it a secret until after independence is attained.

1852
There is still no conclusion to the Oregon Border Dispute. The US presidential election is seen as a referendum on whether to declare war against the British Empire once again. With the emergence of the American Liberty Party, Millard Fillmore fails to take the presidency, instead the Democrats finally seize victory under Lewis Cass. One of his first orders of business are to establish the Columbian Codominium, consisting of the area in contention, between the Columbian River and the 49th parallel, and Victoria Island, to be placed under the authority of a Codominium Commitee consisting of an equal number of American and British delegates. The joint rule would continue for 25 years until 1877.

The Mayan Cruzob cult begins a holy war against a communal native republic of the Yucatan just months after non-Mayans flee en masse from the Peninsula.

In February, a meeting in Sutterville between John Sutter and Brigham Young outlines a constitutional federal secular republic under the name of ‘the Commonwealth of Deseret’. The new territories claimed to be under this new country’s authority are split into two states: California and Zion.

In April, John Sutter publicly announces the discovery of gold in the American River after being unable to conceal it much longer. In May, pro-Mexican Californios and the Legion of Zion clash near the Colorado River, leading to a Mormon defeat. After this disaster, Brigham Young agrees to combine his two military forces: the Legion of Zion and the Legion of Deseret, with John Sutter’s National Army, creating the National Legion.

That summer, the National Legion pushes pro-Mexican forces down the Colorado river in a series of violent clashes. When a large Mexican army of 250 is spotted closing in on the San Diego area, the National Legion marches to cut them off. After securing a firm victory, the Treaty of New River is signed, ending the Deseretian Revolution with the Mexican confirmation of Deseretian independence.

In October, Mormon miners near Dalestown discover gold, prompting a gold rush from the Utah Valley. [This is the OTL Comstock Lode.] Meanwhile, the announcement of gold in California first reaches newspapers in New York City. By the end of the year, nearly four thousand gold-seekers arrive in Yerba Buena.

--

I did a few calculations on the growth of the LDS Church with such different circumstances. Because there was virtually no succession crisis helped a great deal in boosting the numbers.

By 1850, ITTL there will be 81,000 members instead of 52,000 in OTL. By 1852, ITTL there will be 85,000 members instead of 53,000 in OTL. By 1860, I predict 116,000 members in the Mormon church instead of OTL 61,000... almost double. Why? Well, the Utah War caused a severe disruption in the Mormon Church, with the whole valley preparing to pick up and leave for Mexico. It scared members badly, preventing growth and causing 9,000 members to leave the Church in just one year. Replace that with a growth percentage rate average for the times... it is a significant increase in addition to all the others.
 
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Hnau

Banned
What if Joesph Smith doesn't die and he leads his army to conquer DC and resotre the Founding Fathers divine will? He makes the LDS the official church of the USA with something like tolerance for some churches. Smith's teachings about slaves would have southerners happy and if he could get enough converts. We could have the entire USA turn into a crazy mormon theocracy!

:rolleyes: Here we go with the ever-popular controversy... Let me give you the short form: Joseph Smith was an abolitionist, as were many Mormons. I mean, think about it, most of the membership were from the northern states, primarily New York. Pro-slavery, anti-black doctrine only began in all seriousness under Brigham Young.
 

Hnau

Banned
Map for 1855, I believe.

Just a side-note: it seems to me that the increased contention between Britain and the United States could result in British intervention in the Civil War. Likewise, the ACW could occur earlier: the Whig party has favored the northerners much more than in OTL.

New Deseret.PNG
 
:rolleyes: Here we go with the ever-popular controversy... Let me give you the short form: Joseph Smith was an abolitionist, as were many Mormons. I mean, think about it, most of the membership were from the northern states, primarily New York. Pro-slavery, anti-black doctrine only began in all seriousness under Brigham Young.

Really? Hmm, Thanks I actually don't know that much about the detailed history of Mormonism. I really like the TL, its well researched and interesting. Keep up the good work.
 

Hnau

Banned
Aha!

While a Californian Free State was an interesting idea, I have an even more interesting one: the Victorian gold rush of 1851. If the Victorian gold rush occurs before the Californian g.r. then it will receive a majority of the gold-seekers of OTL 1848-49. If we delay the Californian g.r. to say... what's the latest we could plausibly say... 1854, then we'll reverse the statistics! This could be a very interesting divergence in Australian history as well.

So the Mormons can hold onto California... hmmm...
 

Hnau

Banned
Just did some research. Turns out that more gold-seekers arrived in Australia rather than California due to the Victorian g.r. I'm talking about 370,000 immigrants in 1852 alone, compared to 300,000 immigrants total arriving in California from 1848 to 1855.

Alright, then, let's do some math. The non-Americans who sailed from Europe, East Asia and Latin America will most likely find Victoria as close of a destination as San Francisco. I am considering sending two-thirds of that population (80,000 of 120,000 total) to Australia ITTL. Likewise, some 48,000 Americans traveled by sea. Let's say one-third of that number (16,000) will find themselves in Australia instead.

Somehow, and I don't know how, Sutter and Brigham Young will compromise to create barriers against immigration, halving total immigrants by half. That leaves 102,000 new arrivals total during the Gold Rush. Likewise, an additional 50,000 (half of those who did not leave for California ITTL) will leave for Australia instead.

By 1862, the Mormon Church under this timeline's conditions could have grown to 136,000 members. Mormons were the first to the gold fields and have probably taken at least ten thousand of the new gold-seekers as converts. The demographics of 1862 in California would be 46,000 Mormons (a third of the Church in California, I predict); 90,000 non-Mormons (20,000 non-Americans; 70,000 Americans); 9,000 Californios and some 120,000 Native Americans. This would result in a California population total of 265,000 (145,000 without Amerindians) instead of OTL 415,000 by 1862.

But can the Mormons hold onto California?

Let's say all of the Mormons create a coalition with all of the Californios and all of the non-American gold-seekers (who need protection from American profiteers). That's a population of 75,000 against an American population of 70,000. So even if we do everything possible to stem the tide, things are going to get bloody in California. There could very well be an American rebellion, and unlike in the Californian Free State idea, these Americans, facing a corner, could look to the USA for help into becoming a state. With the CFS, the non-Americans could provide a counter to the Americans in order to create a free state where all could pursue business.

But wait a minute, I'm forgetting something. This is 1862! The Civil War should have started up already! And if we make it bloody enough (British intervention?) the Americans will be distracted! California could be made part of Deseret.

What do you think? A Mormon Empire from Pacific Edge to Texan Colorado? Or a Californian Free State? For some reason I feel that a CFS would be needed as a release valve for unwanted populations in Deseret, but I'm also worried about the growth of the LDS Church. They aren't running a theocratic state, but even with increased growth and addition of a doctrine to encourage converts to emigrate to Deseret... I can't see the LDS Church having more than 30 million adherents by the year 2000, with a fifth residing outside of their territory. Considering that California alone possessed 33 million citizens by the year 2000, ITTL I can't see California keeping the population lower than 24 million. That means the LDS Church will need to keep more than 50% of their internal population in California to keep it pacified.

Actually, technically that could work... considering that non-California portions of Deseret by 2000 in OTL consist of about 12 million people. The LDS Church keeps 12 mil of its internal members in non-California regions, with another 12 mil in California. Man, that's cutting it close, really close... but maybe it could work. It's keeping the area much less population-dense and a half-half Mormon non-Mormon demographic... but it could actually work.

I guess it boils down to: a more fanatical Deseret and a cool libertarian California Free State or a moderated, unstable Deseret Commonwealth that includes a lengthy Pacific coastline?
 
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