If I forget you, Oh Samaria...

This TL has as its POD that Judah gets deported and erased and Israel, the northern Kingdom survives. Owing to the fact that this is a POD about Jewish monarchies, Biblical history is used as the starting point.

POD: When Sargon II decides to conquer in the time kings go to war, he decides on a different tactic to cut off the arrogant House of Omri. He goes to war against the poor House of David. King Ahaz attempts to fight back, but the City of David falls to Sargon with ease, and the Southern Kingdom of Judah is no more.

721 BC: Hoshea of Israel decides, after his southern cousins have been erased and their religion starts to vanish, to start a bit of a cultural revival. Despite Israelite differences, Yahweh's predominance is re-emphasized, though the prophets object to the continued practices that are against the old, puritanical ways of Judah, from which many prophets fled.

703 BC: Hoshea's son Omri II reigns in Samaria, a time of brief glory and power, as the Assyrians under Sin-ahhe-erriba make menacing moves against Israel, only to retreat due to trouble in Babylon. A young Israelite prophet, after a moving experience upon a high place gives a thundering account of doom and death that Babylon will give within 117 years, a number that in the future Ephraism takes the significance that 40 does in OTL Judaism.

699 BC: Omri II killed and succeeded by King Methusaleh ben Barachel. As his name states, Methusaleh is a man of war, and launches a campaign against Ashdod. The campaign receives much booty, but the Assyrian King Sin-ahhe-erriba demands much of it. The memory of Judah's destruction still fresh, Methusaleh hands Sin-ahhe-erriba his booty, and Israel becomes a vassal state of Assyria, the brief period of strength enjoyed under Omri II over.

682 BC: Methusaleh succeeded by his son Uzziel. King Uzziel orders the rewriting of books recently uncovered from the house of a Judean scholar who escaped the exile. After 586 BC, these books become known as the Torah, though certain stories are drastically different. Namely, instead of Simeon and Levi slaughtering Shechem, it's Judah and Benjamin. Then, in the conquest narrative, Judah becomes weak as opposed to Israel. This starts a long process of compiling narratives of the monarchy from the perspective of Israelite religion that explains things in a similar, but different way to the OTL Bible.

622 BC: Assyria falls to Babylon. Nabu-udduri-ussur comes to power in a few years and surrounds Samaria instead of Jerusalem.

586 BC: Israel's last king, Barak ben Zechariah is led off to Babylon. Over the course of the next few hundred years until the rise of the Achaemenids, a new religious tradition develops based around remembrance of the glorious days when Israel was in its homeland. This tradition...called Ephraism.

To be continued...

My first true TL, so I eagerly await correction of all the 1000fold errors probably in it.

I think it is a way cool POD. A few questions:

Why is it called Ephraism? Wouldn't Israelism make more sense?

What is the northern prophetic tradition like? Will there be a hierarchical structure similar to that at the Jerusalem temple? If not, how is canonicality decided upon?

Does YHVH keep his Asherah?

Answers:

You're right, Israelism is a better name, in part II I'll correct it.

The northern prophetic tradition is a bit less decentralized than the Jewish one, and the return from the exile sees a slightly different set-up. Namely, Cyrus allows people from multiple tribes to return, and instead of a hierarchical structure like the Temple, you have a slightly different set-up where the Samarians build a Great Sanctuary and have lesser sanctuaries in different locations. A bit more of a primus inter pares approach, as opposed to a top-down approach akin to the Judean approach. So, the authoritarian tendencies more present in OTL Judaism will be lesser, but with the added headaches for future occupying powers of more places to be wary of placing temples to their gods on. As for canonicity, it gets decided on in a way slightly different from the OTL Jewish canon. Some communities of Israelists will in the future create a modified form of the Septaguint after Alex the Great comes along, and then there's the issue of a mixed-breed of Jew and Idumean in the south, an analogue to the OTL Samaritans.

Considering Israelites were at their heart similar to the Jews, I figure at least some history will be convergent, but by the time of the Hasmoneans, the differences will really start to take hold.

And as for Asherah, I'm thinking that Yahweh will indeed keep his Asherah, but it won't quite be either Bitheism or Monontheism, rather Yahweh becomes the Male Principle of Deity and Asherah the female. This keeps a bit more of a human bent to the Israelist tradition emerging, and poses all sorts of interesting questions for the Shammai-Hillel-Yehoshua period.

One thing that I'm considering altering as well is that owing to a different interpretation of how Israelist Halacha works, an inquisitive spirit is kept in place that wasn't in OTL Abrahamicism. So, instead of keeping Halacha on a Torah-and-Oral basis, the more open Israelist spirit will enable the future Israelist religion to borrow from Hellenistic and Indian cultures, as well as the future traditions to arise out of Israelism.

It's a good start, i thinks i'll keep an eye on it

586-430 BC- Israelists in Babylon develop a series of codifications of religious law. They debate on the issue of whether to keep Yahweh and Asherah separate, or to merge them into a binitarian deity, or to go with Yahweh alone. Some groups of Israelists start to feel that the emerging Synagogue analogues are heretical, and leave, becoming known as "Outcasts" (the Hebrew for which I do not know.) They start to develop a tradition indigenous to the Mesopotamian region, while the more "mainstream" Israelists continue to codify a religious tradition that emerges in part as a reaction to Outcast Temple-everywhereism, stating that Samaria alone is the worship site and center of Israelism. Since the Bablyonian authorities do not care to return them to Samaria, they codify the history of the Israelis, as they are dubbed. This history is different from the OTL Tanach, with a lot of negative stories about tribes from the North changed so that the villains are from the South, and King David is remembered as a traitorous, occupying Despot who sought to make his capital rule over Samaria. As well, the Israelis record a series of liturgical songs based on the Prophet Isaiah, called the Isaiaim, which take the place of the Canticles. When Cyrus the Great conquers the Babylonians, he gives permission to Israelis to settle Israel again.

430-330 BC: Israeli religion develops into the first of many divisions to come, the Babylonian-based Outcasts, who are already diverging liturgically and linguistically, adopting religious customs from Zoroastrians and their emerging priesthood adopting dress more in the manner of the Zoroastrian priesthood. The mainstream tradition returns to life, building a Great Sanctuary in Samaria and several Lesser ones, each tribesman offering his regular offering at the 10 Lesser Sanctuaries according to tribes, and on the Great Feasts (the equivalent of the High Holy Days of OTL Judaism), gathering together in Samaria in the Great Sanctuary. The Israeli community in regions such as Babylonia and in the emerging diaspora gathers as well, while other localized forms of Israelism emerge, a group called "Fire-turbans" in Susa, named after their use of fire in liturgy and liturgical language and a firey emblem on their turbans, and the "Builders" in Ctesiphon, who start developing into a localized tradition that glorifies building as a key to get closer to Yahweh, with a strong emphasis on Kabbalism. This situation develops, with the Samarian community, the Fire-Turbans, and the Builders all seemingly stable, along with the Outcasts, when a thunderbolt hits in the form of Alexander the Great....

This is interesting. Keep it up!

You should remember that a) the Great Sanctuary in Samaria was built as a counter Temple. and b) most cities of that era had their own great centre of worship, eg the Parthenon in Athens. In that respect the Jews were not exactly unique.

Where they stand out is a) their rejection of other deities whilst other religions took foreign gods as local versions of their own and b) their dietary rules which separated them from other peoples. That is not so say though that the Jews were insular, for example they adopted some aspects of Hellenistic philosophy. They had enough differences tho8gh that they would not readily assimilate into other cultures as the Samarians did on OTL.

Note that OTL Samaritans use the Pentateuch (aka the 5 books of Moses), in a form identical (except for minor copying variations) to Jews/Christians/Muslims. They do not use the rest of the Tanakh (Old Testament/Hebrew Scripture)

I doubt REALLY strongly that you can get an Asherah worship folded (back) in given the way the Pentateuch is written. I think for that you'd need an earlier POD or a dumping of their existing Scripture, which would changed things beyond all recognition.

Dathi THorfinnsson said:

Note that OTL Samaritans use the Pentateuch (aka the 5 books of Moses), in a form identical (except for minor copying variations) to Jews/Christians/Muslims. They do not use the rest of the Tanakh (Old Testament/Hebrew Scripture)

I doubt REALLY strongly that you can get an Asherah worship folded (back) in given the way the Pentateuch is written. I think for that you'd need an earlier POD or a dumping of their existing Scripture, which would changed things beyond all recognition.

Click to expand...

Religious reforms that took place in Judah making Yahweh the only god were not undertaken until after the conquest and destruction of Israel.The Book of Law (Deut.?) was not even composed (invented) until the time of Josiah so the northern kingdom would not be affected by these later reforms.

Snake Featherston said:

586-430 BC- Israelists in Babylon develop a series of codifications of religious law. They debate on the issue of whether to keep Yahweh and Asherah separate, or to merge them into a binitarian deity, or to go with Yahweh alone. Some groups of Israelists start to feel that the emerging Synagogue analogues are heretical, and leave, becoming known as "Outcasts" (the Hebrew for which I do not know.) They start to develop a tradition indigenous to the Mesopotamian region, while the more "mainstream" Israelists continue to codify a religious tradition that emerges in part as a reaction to Outcast Temple-everywhereism, stating that Samaria alone is the worship site and center of Israelism. Since the Bablyonian authorities do not care to return them to Samaria, they codify the history of the Israelis, as they are dubbed. This history is different from the OTL Tanach, with a lot of negative stories about tribes from the North changed so that the villains are from the South, and King David is remembered as a traitorous, occupying Despot who sought to make his capital rule over Samaria. As well, the Israelis record a series of liturgical songs based on the Prophet Isaiah, called the Isaiaim, which take the place of the Canticles. When Cyrus the Great conquers the Babylonians, he gives permission to Israelis to settle Israel again.

430-330 BC: Israeli religion develops into the first of many divisions to come, the Babylonian-based Outcasts, who are already diverging liturgically and linguistically, adopting religious customs from Zoroastrians and their emerging priesthood adopting dress more in the manner of the Zoroastrian priesthood. The mainstream tradition returns to life, building a Great Sanctuary in Samaria and several Lesser ones, each tribesman offering his regular offering at the 10 Lesser Sanctuaries according to tribes, and on the Great Feasts (the equivalent of the High Holy Days of OTL Judaism), gathering together in Samaria in the Great Sanctuary. The Israeli community in regions such as Babylonia and in the emerging diaspora gathers as well, while other localized forms of Israelism emerge, a group called "Fire-turbans" in Susa, named after their use of fire in liturgy and liturgical language and a firey emblem on their turbans, and the "Builders" in Ctesiphon, who start developing into a localized tradition that glorifies building as a key to get closer to Yahweh, with a strong emphasis on Kabbalism. This situation develops, with the Samarian community, the Fire-Turbans, and the Builders all seemingly stable, along with the Outcasts, when a thunderbolt hits in the form of Alexander the Great....

Click to expand...

Perhaps not much different to OTL with a Hellenised faction developing among them along with a more fundamentalist group and perhaps an analogue Essene movement.

The new religious ideas may mean the Hellenised group is absorbed into the classical mainstream.

Dathi THorfinnsson said:

Note that OTL Samaritans use the Pentateuch (aka the 5 books of Moses), in a form identical (except for minor copying variations) to Jews/Christians/Muslims. They do not use the rest of the Tanakh (Old Testament/Hebrew Scripture)

I doubt REALLY strongly that you can get an Asherah worship folded (back) in given the way the Pentateuch is written. I think for that you'd need an earlier POD or a dumping of their existing Scripture, which would changed things beyond all recognition.

Click to expand...

MarkA said:

Religious reforms that took place in Judah making Yahweh the only god were not undertaken until after the conquest and destruction of Israel.The Book of Law (Deut.?) was not even composed (invented) until the time of Josiah so the northern kingdom would not be affected by these later reforms.

Click to expand...

Hmmm... The split between the modern Jews and the Samaritans is much earlier, but googling it does seem that the Samaritans did adopt the Pentateuch with the Jewish changes after it was finished, and there seems to be some confusion how and why. I assumed the logical inference, but this history is illogical. Learn something every day, I guess, especially here!

MarkA said:

Perhaps not much different to OTL with a Hellenised faction developing among them along with a more fundamentalist group and perhaps an analogue Essene movement.

The new religious ideas may mean the Hellenised group is absorbed into the classical mainstream.

Click to expand...

That would be depend on their relation with those running the Sanuctary. In OTL Jews there were four groups

1) The Sadducees who run the Temple and were Biblical literalists. When the Romans demolished the Temple, they effectively eliminated them.

2) The Pharisees who eventually became the modern Jews. They were influenced by Hellenism.

3) The Essenes were the anti-establishment group who were actively against outsiders.

4) The Christians are an offshoot who became the Hellanised group. They made it is easier for the gentile "god fearers" to become Jews only they didn't become Jews if you see what I mean. Because the Christians weren't exactly pro-Temple the way the Saducees and Essenes were, the lost it made no theological difference to them.

Michael B said:

That would be depend on their relation with those running the Sanuctary. In OTL Jews there were four groups

1) The Sadducees who run the Temple and were Biblical literalists. When the Romans demolished the Temple, they effectively eliminated them.

2) The Pharisees who eventually became the modern Jews. They were influenced by Hellenism.

3) The Essenes were the anti-establishment group who were actively against outsiders.

4) The Christians are an offshoot who became the Hellanised group. They made it is easier for the gentile "god fearers" to become Jews only they didn't become Jews if you see what I mean. Because the Christians weren't exactly pro-Temple the way the Saducees and Essenes were, the lost it made no theological difference to them.

Click to expand...

Isn’t that what I said? What point are you trying to make? I missed it.

Christians are not going to appear in this world since the socio-political events will be completely different.

It is not at all certain that a central temple will be built in Samaria or anywhere else. The temple at Elephantine will be unexceptional in this case and there may well be others throughout the Diaspora. Local temples within the kingdom will almost certainly be built and the priesthood may well be more dispersed and less powerful politically. I expect prophets to still emerge but the population as a whole maybe more accepting of assimilation with the Hellenistic world after Alexander and so their message will be different. Certainly the ‘prophecies’ will be different and it would be interesting to speculate what they may be.

When Rome comes they may well find a country more willing to Romanise and thereby become a secure frontier against the eastern power that will arise. Will the Parthians and Sassanians still establish empires? With a population more willing to identify with the Empire, Rome will have a more stable eastern frontier and a more peaceful occupation. This will mean no opportunity for Vespasian and particularly Titus to gain further military honours and thereby establish a new dynasty unless it is against the eastern power but this will be very unlikely.

MarkA said:

When Rome comes they may well find a country more willing to Romanise and thereby become a secure frontier against the eastern power that will arise. Will the Parthians and Sassanians still establish empires? With a population more willing to identify with the Empire, Rome will have a more stable eastern frontier and a more peaceful occupation. This will mean no opportunity for Vespasian and particularly Titus to gain further military honours and thereby establish a new dynasty unless it is against the eastern power but this will be very unlikely.

Click to expand...

Given that the Parthians' and their successors the Sassanians' centre of power was Persia, I fail to see how the rise of Samaria would prevent their establishment. To prevent that you have to leave control of the region to the Seleucids, ie stop the rise of one empire with another.

As for the rise of the Flavian dynasty, much of that depended on the Civil War, again events that are not going to be influenced by a more powerful Samaria.

Michael B said:

Given that the Parthians' and their successors the Sassanians' centre of power was Persia, I fail to see how the rise of Samaria would prevent their establishment. To prevent that you have to leave control of the region to the Seleucids, ie stop the rise of one empire with another.

As for the rise of the Flavian dynasty, much of that depended on the Civil War, again events that are not going to be influenced by a more powerful Samaria.

Click to expand...

That what I mean, with a more Hellenised population than OTL the Selecuids may have a more loyal and stable base in Palestine. With this to support the dynasty, they maybe able to assert more control over their eastern areas and prevent the rise of these rivals.

While Vespasian had a military reputation from his time in Britain, it was further advanced by the Jewish Revolt and Titus received his military laurels there. No revolt means no chance for father and son to get control of the legions necessary to defeat their rivals for power.

Late 300s Gregorian Calendar: The introduction of Hellenism into the Mideast as a whole produces roughly similiar effects to what it does in OTL with other religions, but Israelism adapts in a unique way. The mainstream group centered with the Great Sanctuary start adapting to the new changes...cautiously. The Great Sanctuary experiences a new challenge, after having survived the years of Babylonian and Achaemenid rule, in the rise of the Hellenistic Temples, temples spread throughout the Diaspora, with variations among them as to the degree of Hellenization. The emergence of various priesthoods is increasingly cemented by the Fire-Turban Kohen Gadol signing a concordat with the more Hellenized Ctesiphon sanctuary, marking a union of the Fire-Turbans, and their gradual absorption into a new form of Israelism. The rise of Chandragupta Maurya sparks a new era in Israeli thought, as the Maurya dynasty promises a new faith....

270-230s Gregorian Calendar:

Ashoka becomes emperor of the Maurya Dynasty, and as the Seleucid Empire starts to break up, begins to spread Buddhism throughout various parts of the world. A community of Israelis moves to Bombay, where later generations shall hear of them as the Bene Yisrael.

The Seleucid Empire and the Israelis are not as prone to warfare as Seleucids and Jews are. The more decentralized nature of Israelism lends itself to syncretized belief systems among some Outcasts and Mainstreams. Israelis also continue moving outward in the Diaspora, spreading to OTL Southern Italy, which is starting to feel the pressure of a rising force...

Res Publica Roma!

General pattern of the world in 230s BC:

My general view of the butterfly effect is that events in one ethnoreligious groups will not generally effect macroevents in the region for a while. Hence, the rise of Assyria, Babylon, Alexander, and the Seleucids are not effected by the 10 Tribes of the North surviving as opposed to the 2 of the South. The survival of the Israelites, as opposed to the Judaeans will also have limited effects on the rise of Rome's Republic and especially on regions such as India, China, Australia, or the Americas. That said....

The world in the 230s BC is somewhat similiar to the OTL one. The Seleucid Empire is shattering under the strain of governing its vast expanses, and the Indo-Greek Kingdoms are rising. China is unifying, the Americas are not effected at all for quite some time ITTL, and Australia for even longer than the Americas ITTL. The Seleucids are increasingly reviving, while the Roman Republic is in the process of the conquest of Italy, heading towards the Pyhrric War. One of the real differences ITTL is that the wars between the Ptolemies and the Seleucids have more of an air of outright struggle, while the Israelists of Samaria develop highly-skilled political operatives, who learn the art of playing Seleucids against Ptolemies, with the idea of strengthening the Israeli lands. It works quite well, or better than the Yehudim's equivalent leaders were able to do.

The result is that the Seleucids and Ptolemies have, by 230s BC and the spread of Buddhism under Asoka and the Third Syrian War, become to a limited extent (one intended to be dealt with at the first opportunity) dependent on the goodwill of the Kohen Gadol of Samaria. This, incidentally, will cause trouble once the Seleucids can consolidate their leadership in the region.

The broad pattern remains the same, but the Kohen Gadol of Samaria is becoming increasingly strengthened over his rival Kohen Gadols, because of the necessity to let troops pass through the lands of Israel.

The next post will have the rise of a more "traditionalist" movement, which will cause all sorts of lovely issues for both the Kohens of the various temples and the empires...

260s-200s BCE:

By this point, the butterfly effect has begun to mushroom out. Carthage has gained a stronger militaristic strain in its culture, and has expanded its conquests of Iberia before it unites with Rome to crush Pyrrhus of Epirus in a massive war. A more militant Carthage has prompted the rise of a Roman consul named Publius Cornelius Scipio, who has promised to meet the challenge of Carthage by re-organizing Roman rule over Italia on a fairer basis, so that the Italian peoples will have better reason to fight Carthage. Publius redefines the Legion on a basis that is meant to provide a longer-term campaign, which later creates problems of generals becoming more and more powerful.

As it stands, Publius Scipio's ideas have laid the foundations under which the Romans move forward to fight Carthage in the First Punic War, while the state of Qin in the east gradually begins to move towards uniting China. The Seleucids and Ptolemies end up partitioning Palestine between them, with Jerusalem under Ptolemaic dominance.

Israelism discovers a new side of it when the Bar Mitzvahs, the Sons of the Commandment arise and start to proclaim a purer form of Israelism. This prompts infighting at a time when the Pharaoh of Ptolemaic Egypt is looking at starting one last war with the Seleucids....

That war, the last Seleucid-Ptolemaic War happens and Seleucid victory ensues, enabling King Antiochus III to establish full rulership over all of Canaan. The Israelists are uncertain as to what this means, as the Bar Mitzvahs are becoming increasingly nervous about the prospect of being under complete sovereignty of a foreign, Hellenistic power.

Israel is a powder-keg while the distant land of Tian Xia in the east has suddenly become a united entity under Qin Shi Huang. The Maurya Dynasty in India is incorporating a group of Israelists who are building their own temple in the city of Goa, and the world awaits with bated breath the finish of the Punic Wars...

Very interesting. Please continue.

Snake Featherston said:

260s-200s BCE:

By this point, the butterfly effect has begun to mushroom out. Carthage has gained a stronger militaristic strain in its culture, and has expanded its conquests of Iberia before it unites with Rome to crush Pyrrhus of Epirus in a massive war. A more militant Carthage has prompted the rise of a Roman consul named Publius Cornelius Scipio, who has promised to meet the challenge of Carthage by re-organizing Roman rule over Italia on a fairer basis, so that the Italian peoples will have better reason to fight Carthage. Publius redefines the Legion on a basis that is meant to provide a longer-term campaign, which later creates problems of generals becoming more and more powerful.

As it stands, Publius Scipio's ideas have laid the foundations under which the Romans move forward to fight Carthage in the First Punic War, while the state of Qin in the east gradually begins to move towards uniting China. The Seleucids and Ptolemies end up partitioning Palestine between them, with Jerusalem under Ptolemaic dominance.

Israelism discovers a new side of it when the Bar Mitzvahs, the Sons of the Commandment arise and start to proclaim a purer form of Israelism. This prompts infighting at a time when the Pharaoh of Ptolemaic Egypt is looking at starting one last war with the Seleucids....

That war, the last Seleucid-Ptolemaic War happens and Seleucid victory ensues, enabling King Antiochus III to establish full rulership over all of Canaan. The Israelists are uncertain as to what this means, as the Bar Mitzvahs are becoming increasingly nervous about the prospect of being under complete sovereignty of a foreign, Hellenistic power.

Israel is a powder-keg while the distant land of Tian Xia in the east has suddenly become a united entity under Qin Shi Huang. The Maurya Dynasty in India is incorporating a group of Israelists who are building their own temple in the city of Goa, and the world awaits with bated breath the finish of the Punic Wars...

Click to expand...

Very iteresting. But what exactly has introduced this more militaristic strain into Carthaginian culture?

MarkA said:

Very iteresting. But what exactly has introduced this more militaristic strain into Carthaginian culture?

Click to expand...

The butterfly effect. The aftermath of Alexander's conquests sees a Ptolemaic push east that I neglected to mention, which prompts the Carthaginians to turn more and more warlike. This prompts the Romans to start doing the same as well, which will pose interesting questions for the Second and Third Punic Wars. Specifically, since Carthage is building a stronger power base, a Roman conquest will be harder, and there may be a Carthaginian Byzantine equivalent that survives for a century or so before the Romans ultimately finish it.