Holding Out for a Hero: Gustav Stresemann Survives

[Faeelin]

Originally Posted by LordInsane

European Confederation? Let's see... that means either a retcon, or that... something... changed to make a name-change a popular idea between 1959 and 1967...

Call it the inevitable trend. You already have the Rhine Currency Bloc from the 1940s, so...

Originally Posted by stevep

LordInsane
Sounds like a markedly more organised propaganda set up for TTL's equivalent of the EU. Could be that with the bitter nature of the war with the Soviets and especially if there's still a Soviet empire to the east continental unity would be far more popular. Not to mention that since the great enemy was to the east and the bulk of the continent united to defeat/repell it this would be far more likely. [As opposed to OTL with the enemy in the centre of the continent and the war resulting in the continent split down the middle and dominated by two external powers]. That's a point. Could be the US is a factor as well. Might be another driver for continental unity is compertition economic/polititical/military whatever with that. Also without the clear extreme 'nationalism' of the Nazis the idea wouldn't be as discredited.

Steve

Stevep hit the nail on the head, actually. Although if it cheers you up, Britain isn't part of the Confederation.

Neither is Switzerland, the jerks.

But yes; this experience was sort of inspired by my experience on field trips as a kid, along with the eawful, awful memories from Colonial Williamsburg, with a dash of Soviet cultural festivities tossed in. Welcome to Neuropa, everyone...

[Susano]

Bah, bah, bah!

[I Blame Communism]

Originally Posted by Faeelin

Although if it cheers you up, Britain isn't part of the Confederation.

Hah, hah, hah!

[Hendryk]

Originally Posted by Faeelin

Although if it cheers you up, Britain isn't part of the Confederation.

"Britain remains apart from a continental political organization" should probably be made into a trope. Even Orwell couldn't bring himself to put Airstrip One under Eurasian rule--even the ultimate totalitarian dystopian nightmare has standards.

[I Blame Communism]

Originally Posted by Hendryk

"Britain remains apart from a continental political organization" should probably be made into a trope. Even Orwell couldn't bring himself to put Airstrip One under Eurasian rule--even the ultimate totalitarian dystopian nightmare has standards.

Damn right!

I suspect that the EC involves surrendering quite a bit of sovereignty, and I know that Britain is co-operating with you lot outside it already (Eurobomb), so I have no interest in our joining, but the EC seems rather more palatable to me than the EU. It depends on the extent to which its a sovereignty-eroding bureaucracy, of course, but an ideology which is about turning national feeling into a mutually beneficial, not destructive force, as opposed to eradicating it and replacing it with loyalty to a nebulous "European Idea", is something I'm much more willing to get behind.

[Susano]

Well, Faeelin tried to tell me that confedertaion implies being more loose than union - but to me, the implication goes the other way round. Confederation are already countries, (con)federal states, whereas unions can be that OR alliances ("German Confederation" is a mistranslation). So, to me it implies being tighter. And that it tries to foster European nationalism doesnt exactly help that image.

[Hendryk]

Originally Posted by Susano

So, to me it implies being tighter. And that it tries to foster European nationalism doesnt exactly help that image.

On the plus side, it means that the USSR didn't turn all of Europe into its satellite.

[Susano]

Originally Posted by Hendryk

On the plus side, it means that the USSR didn't turn all of Europe into its satellite.

Well, earlier in the TL people were unwilling to "die for Vilnius". So, equivalently I now ask: "Uniting for Tallinn?"

[Faeelin]

Originally Posted by Susano

Well, earlier in the TL people were unwilling to "die for Vilnius". So, equivalently I now ask: "Uniting for Tallinn?"

Please, this is interwar Europe, where the French fantasized about invading the Crimea and Germany, umm, did.

[Valdemar II]

Love it, a EU without UK a pure utopia. When that's said this EU is going to be quite differently, with both France and Germany behaving like France in OTL.

[LordInsane]

Originally Posted by Susano

Well, Faeelin tried to tell me that confedertaion implies being more loose than union - but to me, the implication goes the other way round. Confederation are already countries, (con)federal states, whereas unions can be that OR alliances ("German Confederation" is a mistranslation). So, to me it implies being tighter. And that it tries to foster European nationalism doesnt exactly help that image.

Plus we 'know' (sans ret-conning being the case) that it was the European Union in 1959 (that third post about the interview with Stresemann). So... something changed, Confederation can imply more unity than Union (well, union can be tighter. It can also be looser- that's the beauty of the word, that it doesn't actually specify that much- heh, just that even be a big part of the reason why we ended up with an European Union in OTL!)...

Originally Posted by I Blame Communism

Damn right!

I suspect that the EC involves surrendering quite a bit of sovereignty, and I know that Britain is co-operating with you lot outside it already (Eurobomb), so I have no interest in our joining, but the EC seems rather more palatable to me than the EU. It depends on the extent to which its a sovereignty-eroding bureaucracy, of course, but an ideology which is about turning national feeling into a mutually beneficial, not destructive force, as opposed to eradicating it and replacing it with loyalty to a nebulous "European Idea", is something I'm much more willing to get behind.

It does seem a bit more like Europe the Nation than Europe the Idea, doesn't it?

[Faeelin]

Originally Posted by Hendryk

"Britain remains apart from a continental political organization" should probably be made into a trope. Even Orwell couldn't bring himself to put Airstrip One under Eurasian rule--even the ultimate totalitarian dystopian nightmare has standards.

Perhaps because ruling an empire upon which the sun never sets tends to make you not feel the need.

Britain's position in the 1960s is interesting. They're starting to recognize that the Empire is dead, dead, dead. But recognizing that will take even longer than OTL, and that war in the Gold Coast... eh. We don't speak of it.

On the other hand, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, the Malaysian Union, and (maybe) India have are still part of a Stirling Bloc with teeth.

Originally Posted by I Blame Communism

It depends on the extent to which its a sovereignty-eroding bureaucracy, of course, but an ideology which is about turning national feeling into a mutually beneficial, not destructive force, as opposed to eradicating it and replacing it with loyalty to a nebulous "European Idea", is something I'm much more willing to get behind.

Hmm, that's honestly not a way I was looking on it. But yes, that does describe how they're doing it.

[LordInsane]

Originally Posted by Faeelin

Perhaps because ruling an empire upon which the sun never sets tends to make you not feel the need.

Britain's position in the 1960s is interesting. They're starting to recognize that the Empire is dead, dead, dead. But recognizing that will take even longer than OTL, and that war in the Gold Coast... eh. We don't speak of it.

On the other hand, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, the Malaysian Union, and (maybe) India have are still part of a Stirling Bloc with teeth.

Hm... no maybe Pakistan? Of course... we heard of an Indian Civil War, and we've heard of how Pakistan was, probably, inevitable by the late 30s... and that makes me suspect Indo-Pakistani relations are, if anything, even worse than OTL.

[Dr. Nodelescu]

Originally Posted by Faeelin

A short visit to Europe, in 1967...

[...]

Tim scowled. “Only because they weren’t a bunch of dumbasses. You telling me you wouldn’t rather live somewhere along the Mediterranean?”

Jan shrugged. “Well, depends. Maybe one of the Spanish communes.” He lowered his voice. “You know in Spain, on the communes it's like a girl's duty to teach a guy everything about sex, so that when he's older he can teach all the virgins the same. Each according, dude." At Tim’s disbelieving look, Jan spread his arms. “And I hear that they let dudes give it to them any way they want. Aren’t you Jews into that?”

“No, just your father.”

[...]

Tim digested this minor disaster as Jan asked a question in German. “So how’s the French girl?”

“I don’t know her name yet.”

“Eh, you don’t need to know her name,” Jan leered. “She’s a French girl, right? I bet you could get her on her back in an hour, easy. Course, I don't know how much she'd enjoy it, with the way you bastards mutilate yourselves, but...””

“Do you even know what you do with a girl on her back?”

A short visit to a German teamspeak channel in the end of 2007 IOTL...

Dr. No, where've you been?
-- Mike, I've been to Prague last weekend.
Ah, in Prague! To the whores?
-- No, goddamn it! OK, I was at Darling Cabaret for once, but that was a mere accident.
An accident? You mean she got pregnant?

I hate these clichés and of course young men can hardly think of anything else. But nonetheless, Faeelin, I'd really like to know if Tim got laid in the end.

[Dr. Strangelove]

Originally Posted by LordInsane

Plus we 'know' (sans ret-conning being the case) that it was the European Union in 1959 (that third post about the interview with Stresemann). So... something changed, Confederation can imply more unity than Union (well, union can be tighter. It can also be looser- that's the beauty of the word, that it doesn't actually specify that much- heh, just that even be a big part of the reason why we ended up with European Union in OTL!)

My suspicion is that something went awry in the early 60's leading to a more authoritarian, vaguely fascistic European Union. Without the experience of nazism to vaccinate europeans against such aspects of totalitarianism as militarism, ultarnationalism, racialism, etc, and with France's not-dictatorial-but-not-too-pleasant-either Fourth Republic as an example, I think western europe may be ripe for the creation of an authoritarian superstate in the 60's if the right conditions are given.

Btw: united authoritarian europe embroiled in a war against the Soviet Union in a world without nazism? Red Alert, anyone?

[stevep]

Originally Posted by Hendryk

"Britain remains apart from a continental political organization" should probably be made into a trope. Even Orwell couldn't bring himself to put Airstrip One under Eurasian rule--even the ultimate totalitarian dystopian nightmare has standards.

Hendryk

That had me in stitches. Never thought of it that way before but even Orwell, an ardent Socialist tied us to the US rather than Europe. Interesting insight.

Steve

[stevep]

Originally Posted by Dr. Strangelove

My suspicion is that something went awry in the early 60's leading to a more authoritarian, vaguely fascistic European Union. Without the experience of nazism to vaccinate europeans against such aspects of totalitarianism as militarism, ultarnationalism, racialism, etc, and with France's not-dictatorial-but-not-too-pleasant-either Fourth Republic as an example, I think western europe may be ripe for the creation of an authoritarian superstate in the 60's if the right conditions are given.

Btw: united authoritarian europe embroiled in a war against the Soviet Union in a world without nazism? Red Alert, anyone?

Dr. Strangelove

I must admit that, while I hope it doesn't get that bad, that's the sort of vibes I was getting as well. The emphesis on aspects of culture and history related to nationalism does sound rather excessive. Distinct feeling that the national identity is rather imposed rather than accepted.

Steve

[LordInsane]

Well, we do know that there are parties in Germany, and that they apparently aren't completely emasculated, so it's not all bad, at least.

[Faeelin]

Originally Posted by Dr. Nodelescu

[/I]I hate these clichés and of course young men can hardly think of anything else. But nonetheless, Faeelin, I'd really like to know if Tim got laid in the end.

It's a 15 year old in the 1960s. He's lucky if he copped a feel.

Originally Posted by Dr. Strangelove

My suspicion is that something went awry in the early 60's leading to a more authoritarian, vaguely fascistic European Union. Without the experience of nazism to vaccinate europeans against such aspects of totalitarianism as militarism, ultarnationalism, racialism, etc, and with France's not-dictatorial-but-not-too-pleasant-either Fourth Republic as an example, I think western europe may be ripe for the creation of an authoritarian superstate in the 60's if the right conditions are given.

You're actually close, although things aren't as dark as you make them appear.

Btw: united authoritarian europe embroiled in a war against the Soviet Union in a world without nazism? Red Alert, anyone?

And they said it couldn't be done! Bwahaha! Mind, I keep flipping back and forth on whether or not a major war will break out. But things will be tense, for a while.

Originally Posted by stevep

I must admit that, while I hope it doesn't get that bad, that's the sort of vibes I was getting as well. The emphesis on aspects of culture and history related to nationalism does sound rather excessive. Distinct feeling that the national identity is rather imposed rather than accepted.

Steve

I should note that the European Union in OTL has been a big supporter of attempts to emphasize Charlemagne's role in the European tradition. I'll try to find info on it later.

[Nekromans]

Originally Posted by stevep

Hendryk

That had me in stitches. Never thought of it that way before but even Orwell, an ardent Socialist tied us to the US rather than Europe. Interesting insight.

Steve

But 1984 was Orwell's nightmare world - one where socialism had been utterly corrupted and turned against the People. It was intended to show what English Socialism would be without a union of the Isles and the Continent.

Good stuff, Faeelin - I can see this sort of thing happening.