A Jewish state survives

WI a Jewish state, roughly in Palestine, had survived Masada. I believe that there had already been a diaspora by 0 CE/ BCE.

Still if such a nation had managed to stay in existence what follows?

I think it might easily have retained existence, or be it subordinate to a Moslem empire the spread of Islam.

In OTL Christianity was VERY anti semitic circa 1100. However if there had been fewer Jews in Europe would this have been weaker.

Alternatively would the Jewish state in alliance with Arabs have prevented the Crusaders taking Jerusalem?
 
This seems unlikely. The best way for a Jewish state to survive is new Jewish revolt in 70. This causes immense butterflies, as does most modifications of Rabbinic Judaism because of the impact on Christianity.
 
The region is a crossroads between three continents effectively, so I doubt that a Jewish state will survive at all. There are alot of interwoven factors here and I don't quite know the history there to any great or minor degree. However, I don't see the Romans just walking away.

I also think that a diaspora will still occur, there were Jewish settlements established by trader along the coast of Eastern Africa.
 

Kaptin Kurk

Banned
The region is a crossroads between three continents effectively, so I doubt that a Jewish state will survive at all. There are alot of interwoven factors here and I don't quite know the history there to any great or minor degree. However, I don't see the Romans just walking away.

I also think that a diaspora will still occur, there were Jewish settlements established by trader along the coast of Eastern Africa.


What if Judiasm begins prosletyzing...and gains converts and armies that way...i.e....Judiasm becomes a earlier analouge of Islam...with a charasmatic prophet and a trusty assistant skilled at war....

Still far fetched, but I suppose the situation was nearing the rite time for a monothestic or universalistic salvation religion to sweep the area...why not Judiasim?
 
What if Judiasm begins prosletyzing...and gains converts and armies that way...i.e....Judiasm becomes a earlier analouge of Islam...with a charasmatic prophet and a trusty assistant skilled at war....

They had that in OTL, It's called Christianity. :p

Proselyting is very much against the whole "We are a chosen people" Judaism has going on. I don't think its that kind of religion, remove that part and put a leader on... well you have Christianity or some incredibly similar.
 

Kaptin Kurk

Banned
They had that in OTL, It's called Christianity. :p

Proselyting is very much against the whole "We are a chosen people" Judaism has going on. I don't think its that kind of religion, remove that part and put a leader on... well you have Christianity or some incredibly similar.


Right, but it doesn't have to be Christianity. Just changing Judiasm doesn't equal creating Christianity, especially if Jesus isn't involved. Of course, it wouldn't be OTL Judiasm, but if its' descended from it...and insist on calling itself Judiasm...and there's no other people around calling themselves Jews to differ...well...its the 'future of Judiasm' :winkytongue:
 
I am bumping my own thread. I think that the cultural strength of the Jewish traditon might allow it to survive if there had not be the rebellion in 70 ad.

I wonder whether there being a smaller diaspora might have prevented, or at least reduced Christian anti semitism.

I am guessing that this state would have had to deal with growing Islam but might have managed it. If the Crusades came they would have had little choice but to ally with Moslem Arabs..

As I think of this it occurs to me that Europe, and indeed the Arab World, might have lost culturally since it strikes me that Jewish communities have contributed disporportionately.
 
What if Judiasm begins prosletyzing...and gains converts and armies that way...i.e....Judiasm becomes a earlier analouge of Islam...with a charasmatic prophet and a trusty assistant skilled at war....

Still far fetched, but I suppose the situation was nearing the rite time for a monothestic or universalistic salvation religion to sweep the area...why not Judiasim?

They had that in OTL, It's called Christianity. :p

Proselyting is very much against the whole "We are a chosen people" Judaism has going on. I don't think its that kind of religion, remove that part and put a leader on... well you have Christianity or some incredibly similar.

Right, but it doesn't have to be Christianity. Just changing Judiasm doesn't equal creating Christianity, especially if Jesus isn't involved. Of course, it wouldn't be OTL Judiasm, but if its' descended from it...and insist on calling itself Judiasm...and there's no other people around calling themselves Jews to differ...well...its the 'future of Judiasm' :winkytongue:

As you may well have imagined, I am pretty sure it is not Christianity one is considering here. Sure, you have a chaismatic prophet and/or possibly so-called-Messiah figure, and a movement which might proselytise and gain supporters outside of the Jews (one has to find some way of breaking the wall of separation, though, as Jews did not comonly associate with Gentiles so much- although I do beleive there were Gentile proselytes on the outer fringes), but unlike Christianity, it is militaristic. This, I thoink, is going to cause a lot of tension between any Christians emerging from this, as some might see this new figure figure as the "true" Messiah, and used as an argument against the followers of Jesus of Nazareth...
 
Right, but it doesn't have to be Christianity. Just changing Judiasm doesn't equal creating Christianity, especially if Jesus isn't involved. Of course, it wouldn't be OTL Judiasm, but if its' descended from it...and insist on calling itself Judiasm...and there's no other people around calling themselves Jews to differ...well...its the 'future of Judiasm' :winkytongue:
This actually has already happened with Rabbinic Judaism which is a fair bit different the its Pharisaic ancestor. Basically in response to being beaten down by the Romans multiple times they decided that trying to regain control of Israel, put a messiah back in power and run things from the Temple just wasn't working for them and to just wait until a messiah showed up and did it himself.* If you can keep the Zealots, Sicarii, the more militantly anti-Roman/nationalistic wings of the Sadducees/Pharisees as well as the other Jewish groups alive and energized you might have something to work with.

They had that in OTL, It's called Christianity. :p

Proselyting is very much against the whole "We are a chosen people" Judaism has going on. I don't think its that kind of religion, remove that part and put a leader on... well you have Christianity or some incredibly similar.
What if Judiasm begins prosletyzing...and gains converts and armies that way...i.e....Judiasm becomes a earlier analouge of Islam...with a charasmatic prophet and a trusty assistant skilled at war....

Still far fetched, but I suppose the situation was nearing the rite time for a monothestic or universalistic salvation religion to sweep the area...why not Judiasim?
Actually "We are the Chosen People" isn't the major impediment to it becoming a proselytizing religion (there were and are to this day converts despite the Chosen People bit) it's that from a theological perspective there isn't any point. Judaism applies to Jews because they are Jews. The rules of Judaism don't apply to Gentiles because basically their ancestors haven't "signed the Mosaic contract" and are already covered under Noah's contract with God. To make people convert you have to give them a reason to convert. Which probably means adding things like Hell and damnation and limited salvation ending up with Christianity.
1)I am bumping my own thread. I think that the cultural strength of the Jewish traditon might allow it to survive if there had not be the rebellion in 70 ad.
2) I am guessing that this state would have had to deal with growing Islam but might have managed it. If the Crusades came they would have had little choice but to ally with Moslem Arabs..

3)As I think of this it occurs to me that Europe, and indeed the Arab World, might have lost culturally since it strikes me that Jewish communities have contributed disporportionately.

  1. To have a Jewish state survive (or rather be recreated as it was effectively a Roman state at the time) you are going to have to find some way to create autonomy for a Jewish state from the Empire. Perhaps the Bar Kokhba Revolt goes better and instead of just being slapped around pretty hard the Romans actually "lose" and decide that peaceful relations with these troublesome Jews is better then wasting money on policing them. Maybe even recruiting a Foreign Legion of these neo-Maccabees.
  2. Assuming Islam ever evolves. With the survival of a Jewish State (and by extension Temple based worship) you may get something along the lines of an Arab Judaism with the same God but a different covenant that applies only to Arabs. Perhaps an Arab Temple Of Mecca with its own line of Mohamed descended Kohen equivalents
  3. True but as this Israel is likely to be on a number of important trade routes the spread of Jewish ideas and more importantly the synergy of Jewish Christian and Muslim ideas will probably still take place.


* This is a VAST oversimplification.
 
Jewish State.

I can see a Jewish state between Rome and Persia that manages to play off the rival empires. Or if the Persians were able to conquer Syria and part of Asia Minor and allowing the Jews to have their own client state.
 
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