Admiral Canaris
Banned
Christianity remains only as small sects in southern Europe and the Mid East, periodically persecuted by the Jewish majority. Is this possible at all, or should it go into ASB? If it is possible, what are the consequences?
Judaism becomes the Roman religion
- Thread starter Admiral Canaris
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There's a story about that somewhere.
'The Wandering Christian', I think it was.
Altough Judaism didn't become the religion of choice until Karl den Store.
No, not on this board. I think there was a link to it, but...
Check the Changing the Times site (there's a link to it in https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=82457), I think it was there.
Admiral Canaris
Banned
Well, it's a Judaism people can convert into, otherwise everything's the same, so yes, I'd guess.
I didn't see it on CTT.
Hmm, I'm guessing that in order for Judaism to be adopted at large by the Roman Empire, Christianity needs to be butterflied away and Judaism itself needs to evolve along a different tangent (perhaps led by Jesus' ATL counterpart).
And perhaps instead of the devastating revolts against the Romans as IOTL, there's a civil war or wars within Judea between say, this "new" version of Judaism (a sect that claims that in order for the Messiah to come, the entire world needs to follow Mosaic Law), and groups like the Zealots and such. The "new" version wins out, and Judaism begins to spread...
Well, if you want Christianity to remain a sect, here's an easy answer: the Ebionites. Christians who believed that one must be a Jew in order to be Christian (meaning following Mosaic Law, getting circumcised, et. al.), AND they do not believe that Jesus was the Messiah. According to the Ebionites, yes Jesus was a great teacher, but he was not the Messiah - just an ordinary man, born from an ordinary family. They blame Paul for "paganizing" Christianity.
Just like the Roman Catholic Church, Judaism before the destruction of the Second Temple had a very strict hierarchy. At the top were the Kohen Godol, the high priests. They were the ones that directly spoke to God, much like the pope IOTL. Below them were the regular Kohen, the priests, who performed the rituals. Underneath them were the Levi'im, aka the Levites. They were Temple functionaries. Besides the Temple hierarchy, there was the Sanhedrin, which was a congress of rabbis that settled everything.
The biggest difference between the Church hierarchy and the Temple hierarchy is that the Kohens and Levites are ALL FROM ONE TRIBE. They have patrilineal status. If you're father was a Levite, you're a Levite. Kohens were only supposed to marry Levites or other Kohens, etc. To get an analogy to the Church hierarchy, you'd have to open up the priesthood or give rabbis a larger role.
Also, the role of Jerusalem cannot be stressed enough. It is the CENTER of Judaism, much in the same way as Mecca is for Islam. Whoever controls Jerusalem more or less controls the Jewish world because the Beit Ha Mikdash(or whatever it is Anglicized as), the Temple, is in Jerusalem.
This could only work if judaism could blend with local customs in faraway places. one of christianity's advantages are that its rules aren't as strict. you can eat pork and sea critters, you can drink. if you could find a way to blend judaism with local customs, like for example, the way chrisdtianity blended with the pagans on the british isles, where a lot of their local customs remained. another example is voodoo, which is basically catholicism that lives in Haiti. you have to find a way to make judaism expansionist and able to mesh with different cultures.
Faeelin
Banned
I dunno. Look at a quote from OTL's Philo of Alexandria, a 1st century CE Jewish philosopher about circumcision.
He's arguing for it, but it suggests that it's not necessary...
I think in the second volume of What If, Robert Crowley, ed., there is TL by Carlos Eire, a historian of religion. In it, Judaism does become the Roman religion; the POD kind of side-steps the question of Christianity because it imagines what if Pontius Pilate hadn't refused to free Jesus. Hence, Jesus is not crucified and does not become viewed as a martyr/messiah. A Catholic, Eire still allows for the possibility that Jesus is the son of God, but his main effect is as a reformer within Judaism, sort of like a mega-Hillel. The religion that emerges has much of the characteristics outlined above: it allows converts and divorces itself from strict application of all Levitican laws. It does however end up being slightly more rigid than Christianity and has much less of a forgiveness ethic (as well as a very muted eschatological element). Hence, it does not alter the cultural trajectory of Rome in the same way that Gibbon thought that Christianity did.
In the 300 AD period when Christianity became the "official" Roman religion a lot was happening. The empire was corrupt, things were deterioration. There were an assortment of cults going around; the Cult of Isis. The Cult of Diana plus many more. These cults were made to captivate new recruits. Judaism isn't.
Flocculencio
Donor
For that to happen, Judaism would have to develop a proselyte variant. Oh wait, it did, it's called Christianity(and it did again with Islam some time later just to be on the safe side)
Beat me to it- yup Christianity and Islam are basically evangelical variants of Judaism just as Buddhism is the evangelical variant of Hinduism.