Jewish Nation Outside of Israel

Okay. The only way there's going to be a Jewish homeland outside of Israel is if it is physically impossible to live in OTL Israel. So, in order to achieve a Jewish homeland in another part of the world, you must make Israel relatively uninhabitable to Jewish peoples. So, let's say that the Ottoman Empire survives as a relatively strong force throughout the Twentieth Century.

Where do the Jews leave Europe for? I assume a Jewish homeland will arise earlier because there is nothing blocking it (i.e. Palestinians in the way). I think Patagonia would work out the best, as the Jewish population of Argentina, as of 1900, was one of the higher ones outside of Europe.
 
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Xen

Banned
How about sometime during the Spanish Inquisition a decesion is made to ship Jews who wont convert to Southern Florida, there they'd be outside of the Kings protection, whatever happens to them is in God's hands. Perhaps they have the skills and resources to build a network of roads and cities. Eventually they begin trading with other European powers and the Indian tribes to the north and advance as a distinct society. They have occaisonal clashes with Pirates who raid their towns and kidnap their women so they develop a strong Army and a good Navy. During this time they have a population boom with more Jews leaving Europe for the new homeland. It grows stronger and by 1700 encompasses most of Florida, and with an alliance with England and Seminoles keeps the Spaniards from overrunning them. By the time of the American Revolution they are an independent but hardly equal nation to Europe (at least in Europe's eyes) they ally with England during the American Revolution and War of 1812.
 
Walter_Kaufmann said:
Okay. The only way there's going to be a Jewish homeland outside of Israel is if it is physically impossible to live in OTL Israel. So, in order to achieve a Jewish homeland in another part of the world, you must make Israel relatively uninhabitable. But you must do it between about 1200 and 1600 in order to decrease butterflies. So, here goes...

Why resort to ASB? Just have the Ottoman Empire survive. No Israel in Palestine.
 
Xen, I was thinking somewhat along those lines, only of the Spanish Expulsion. Nearly 200,000 Jews were expelled from Spain in the 1490s. What if a wealthy patron had hired a navigator, let's say John or Sebastian Cabot, as they seemed willing to work for hire. If they head to the same places, will we see a Jewish Newfoundland, Nova Scotia, and Quebec or a Jewish Argentina?
 
200 000 - that's a lot of boats. Where would all these Spanish Jews live while they waited for the boats to built?

How about a few do as you suggest Walter and the rest as in the OTL go off to Turkey, N. Africa etc.. Slowly word gets back to the Jews that went to Turkey, North Africa etc. that the colony in X has survived and there is plenty of land for new settlers and they can be free of oppression by Christians and Muslims. A slow migration follows. Then what? Word gets to the Spanish court of a Jewish colony in the new world and they go off and attack it? To avoid further attacks from the Spanish, the colonists trek far in land? Hmm, not sure where to go with this now...
 
If anyone wants to take this on . . .

you're going to have to make the non-Israel homeland a happy one

or

deal with a large Zionist movement trying to get to Israel (with an insurgency against the Ottomans, etc.) by the early 20th century. If the latter, the Ottomans must survive any European wars in better shape than the British did or the ATL will converge with OTL.
 
Didn't some of the expelled jews go straight to the Ottomans, who were happy to recieve them? Maybe if most of them go there, the Ottomans would set up a place for them....
 
Juan Peron was a Spainish Seaman, and a hidden Jew, in the 1470~80 he worked for the Portugese as they worked their way down the African coast.
By the late 80's he was a Ships Captian, & owner of several ships.
In the 1490's following the Requestia, the Spainish Rulers started a program to expell the Jews. while Lots of them whould flee east to the Empire, there were many who couldn't. At this point Juan Peron had his Idea.

Along the Moroccan coast Juan had seen the ruins of old Abandoned Roman cities. Juan started using his ships to trasnsport the fleeing Jew south to these cities. Dispite some trouble with the few Berber tribemen, The cities began to be rebuilt. By 1510 Juan Peron had moved close to 25,000 people, with another 5~6,000, arriving on their own.

As Pograms flared up here and there across Europe, in the next several centuries, a small but steady trickle of Jewish immigrants, continued to arrive. This was enuff to maintain a slight Jewish Majority in the Area.

During the Thirty years war in the 1600's Spain made its biggest push to gain control over Morocco, But as Morocco, was part of the Empire. And with the rebuilding of the old Roman Aquaducts, and Roads. ect., it was a very prosperous part. The Ottamans sent troops, and in a major Battle at Tangeriers, The Spainish were forced to withdraw.

Given this Sign that the Empire was serious about protecting the Area, Jews From all over Europe, began moving there in larger numbers. This move wasn't always voluntary, as European States all over, Began expelling Jews to Morocco.

In 1799 with Napoleans campains in Eygpt, and the mid east, the Ottamans withdraw most of their forces in Morocco, for use nearer home. They would not come back.

In the Early 1800's the Jewish population of Morroco, began forming small home Militias, to take the place of the withdrawn Ottoman Army. In 1838 they would be tested. In order to quiet domastic problems, the Frech Gov't launched a invadsion of Algeirs. After conquering Algiers, the French turned their attention to Morrocco.

Alarmed by events in Algiers, the Population of Morocco had Began planning for their own defense. Buying milatary Supplies, and hiring Ex-Soldiers from Europe to help Train their army. In 1843, the French Invaded, and were defeated "In the Name of the Empire", Morocco still being techinally part of the Ottomans.

This set off a new wave of anti-Semitism across Europe, and a new wave of immigrants. This was the Status Quo, for the next 60 years. Morocco was a seperate self governing province of the Ottoman Empire, But as the Ottomans declined, European Influence in Morocco, increased.

In 1914 When the GW1 started, and the Ottomans joined the Central powers, the Moroccoans, chose to stay with the Allies, and the Bond was finally broken. While most of the Moroccoan troops, would be used in Africa, Two Regiments did fight on the Western Front.

In 1933 The Nazi Party took power in Germany, Amid a wave of Anti-Semitism, were the Nazis pointed to the Jewish regiments on the Western Front, & in Africa. In 1935, a Ship load of Jewish reguees were turned away from several ports in Europe, and America. On ther way back to Germany the Ship Stopped in Tangeirs. There Not only were the Refugees wellcomed, But the Gov't refuesed to let the ship go intill unloaded.

For the next four years Thousands of Jews were forcefully expelled from Germany. Thousands More fleed on their own from east Europe. But in September with the Start of GW2, All this stopped.

All During the War, Reports of major Actrocities, But Both FDR & Churchill put Pressure on the Morraccoans to down play the Reports. But in May 1945, The Moroccoans, headed for the Camps, where the reports had come from.

In June 1945 the Morroccoan Gov't passed the "Law of Return", allowing all Jews to immigrate freely. This started a major wave of European Jews leaving. In Fact today, the PerCapita percentage of Jews in Europe is lower than, Before the Roman, Disporia in 79 AD.

Morrocco [inculds OTL Western Sahara] is a stable proporous democratic Country. Self suffifenct in most food areas, with a large Middle Class, respected, and regonized around the World. Morocco Maintains a large Mititary, Justified to It's self as a reaction to the GW2 Holocaust. And the Prevention of a repeat of the Holocausts appears to be their major Foriegn policy. To this end Morocco has sent more Peace Keepers to UN requests than any other Nation.
 
What about an ATL centred around the proposed attempts to establish a Jewish homeland during the 1880s in Uganda or Madagascar ? OTL, the Zionists vehemently rejected these proposals for a Jewish homeland in Africa due to such areas not being explicitly mentioned in the Jewish holy books, but WI somehow they'd been compelled to accept these areas as their new homelands for Jewish ppl ? I've even heard of a venture in the late 19th C to develop a Jewish colony in northwestern Aust, when I was undertaking Islamic studies in uni...
 
David Howery said:
Didn't some of the expelled jews go straight to the Ottomans, who were happy to recieve them? Maybe if most of them go there, the Ottomans would set up a place for them....

Most of the expelled Jews settled in the Ottoman Empire at the invitation of the Sultan. Most settled in Isatanbul and Salonika, the latter of which had a Jewish majority until the Holocaust, a little known fact, and a bit of a problem for Greece's claims to the city.

It seems unlikely that Jews settled in the largest and richest city in the world, where they were protected and highly privelesged, would abandon this to sail all the way across the world to live in mud huts and be at the mercy of anyone who chose to attack them, which would be everybody.

If the Ottomans had stayed out of WWI, there would be no Israel, and if an anti-Semitic regime like Nazi Germany had developed, a good number of Jews would have fled to Ottoman territory.

A Zionist leader once offered to pay off the entire Ottoman debt in exchange for Palestine, but AHII of course couldn't do that, but encouraged the Jews to consider the entire empire their homeland.
 
An odd possibility...

I recall reading this scenario in which, for reasons I won't get into here, the Temple in Jerusalem survives past 70 AD, eventually becoming a religious university, and later one of the central sites of Islam. This may work, but it would probably cause too many changes down the road.
 
Historically, areas around Kakadu and Tasmania in Australia were considered for the site of Jewish refugees. As far as I know, the setting up of the Kakadu site was delayed by WW2 and made redundant by the setting up of Israel in 1948.
 
Aust Jewish homeland

Kakadu, eh ? Then the Zionist settlers would've had to contend with the crocs and other hostile wildlife, and it wouldn't be the internationally-renown National Park it is now. Right now, here in Darwin, despite our cosmopolitan nature, there isn't really a large prominent no. of Jews. A possible Jewish homeland in Tassie too, huh ? Never heard of that 1...

BTW, AFAIK Aust's Jewish pop has been largely centred in Melbourne (I knew a Jewish chick from there during my uni yrs, whom alotta my friends said that I liked- but that's another story-lol), and there've been a fair few notable prominent Jewish ppl from Melbourne who've contributed to Aust hist such as Gen Sir John Monash, renowned for his command of the AIF on the Western Front. There's also a Holocaust Museum in Sydney, with significant exhibits on such aspects of the Final Solution as Theresienstadt (sp), which I attended a few yrs ago.
 
Jewish state outside Israel, you say?

Two options.

One: The cheapie. Khazar nation survives Petcheneg onslaught, recovers and expands, Jewish Khazaria replaces Ukraine and Russia in history. What Jew would leave rich and powerful Volga homeland for historically distant desert strip? Alternative: Instead of Russia and Constantinople, it's Khazaria and Jerusalem.

Two: Colony established in New World, picking isolated area like Patagonia by early 1500s. Southern portions of Chile and Argentina become New Israel.
 
Kimberleys

There is a book called An unpromised land. It talks about a plan to establish a jewish colony of c100 000 in the Kimberleys (north western Australia). This was prior to WW2. IIRC it did involve some fairly high level discussions (definitely premiers, can't remember if PM was involved) and I think it had some support from the Rothchilds(sp?). This would not, however, have created an independent jewish state.
 
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