I'm very sure that they wouldn't be annexed by Ukraine. The first question that I would like to ask is about their territory if they were to be made an independent state, which that I doubt they wouldn't.
The fate of Crimean Tatars in CP victorious World
- Thread starter Ridwan Asher
- Start date
Rockingham
Banned
This is a misconception born of wishful thinking
. The Crimea would either be German or Ukranian territory. Remember, the Germans didn't even want the Ottomans to recieve Armenia or Azerbaijin, Brest-Livotsk only gave them their Caucasus losses from 1878. Their was no way the Ottomans could sieze the Crimea by force.
Additionally, I don't know what population of the Crimea was Tartar in 1918, but it is currently less then 10%
Edit: Russians: 58.32%; Ukrainians: 24.32%; Crimean Tatars: 12.1%; Belarusians: 1.44%; Tatars: 0.54%; Armenians: 0.43%; and Jews: 0.22%.
. The Crimea would either be German or Ukranian territory. Remember, the Germans didn't even want the Ottomans to recieve Armenia or Azerbaijin, Brest-Livotsk only gave them their Caucasus losses from 1878. Their was no way the Ottomans could sieze the Crimea by force.Additionally, I don't know what population of the Crimea was Tartar in 1918, but it is currently less then 10%
Edit: Russians: 58.32%; Ukrainians: 24.32%; Crimean Tatars: 12.1%; Belarusians: 1.44%; Tatars: 0.54%; Armenians: 0.43%; and Jews: 0.22%.
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1) Why would Germany want to give the Crim Tartars independence? OTL Germany wanted a large but weak Ukraine, as a puppet state.
2) Even if Germany wanted to, I'm pretty sure that by 1918 the Tartars were no longer the majority ethnic group in Crimea -- they were already outnumbered by Ukrainians and Russians. IMS this had been true since the late 19th century. The Czars had been moving people in since the late 18th century, and the Tartars had been trickling out.
3) Are you thinking that Germany might give the Crimea to the Ottomans? But that didn't happen OTL... the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk threw the Ottomans a very small bone (Russian Anatolia) but otherwise didn't give them much. Which is why the Ottomans eventually chose to ignore it and invade the Caucasus... but the point is, unless the Ottomans are doing much better than iOTL, why would the Germans give them this rather nice province, which hadn't been Ottoman since the days of Catherine the Great?
Doug M.
2) Even if Germany wanted to, I'm pretty sure that by 1918 the Tartars were no longer the majority ethnic group in Crimea -- they were already outnumbered by Ukrainians and Russians. IMS this had been true since the late 19th century. The Czars had been moving people in since the late 18th century, and the Tartars had been trickling out.
3) Are you thinking that Germany might give the Crimea to the Ottomans? But that didn't happen OTL... the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk threw the Ottomans a very small bone (Russian Anatolia) but otherwise didn't give them much. Which is why the Ottomans eventually chose to ignore it and invade the Caucasus... but the point is, unless the Ottomans are doing much better than iOTL, why would the Germans give them this rather nice province, which hadn't been Ottoman since the days of Catherine the Great?
Doug M.
The population is sow low, because Stalin deported a lot of Tartars in Siberia and Kazakhstan.
Mm, no... it was low before that.
The Soviet Census of 1923 showed about 625,000 people in the Crimea, of whom only about 150,000 were Tartars.
Mind, Crimea had no majority ethnic group -- it was very mixed, with Russians, Tartars, Ukrainians, Bulgarians, Armenians, Greeks, Jews, and even some Germans.
But the Tartars weren't a majority, nor even the biggest group. Years of systematic persecution had pushed thousands of them out, while Czarist settlement programs had filled the penninsula with other ethnicities.
Of course, Stalin would administer the coup de grace... not only to the Tartars, but to a couple of other groups as well, like the Black Sea Greeks.
Doug M.
Before anything, I think I should remind you gentlemen about two points :
-I wasn't talking about OE in the first place.
-I'm sure we are talking about Crimea's population in 1918, which that means we're not talking about deportation of the Crimean Tatars by Stalin in 1940s, which wouldn't going to happen in CP victorious World.
IOTL there was a "Crimean People's Republic" that were proclaimed by Noman Çelebicihan and Cafer Seydamet at December 26th, 1917. IOTL it was destroyed by the Bolsheviks in January 1918. Now without Bolshevik threats like IOTL, I don't think Crimean People's Republic would be simply dissolved by Germany. Sure they can if they wanted to, but was a large Ukraine really important for Germany at that time?
-I wasn't talking about OE in the first place.
-I'm sure we are talking about Crimea's population in 1918, which that means we're not talking about deportation of the Crimean Tatars by Stalin in 1940s, which wouldn't going to happen in CP victorious World.
IOTL there was a "Crimean People's Republic" that were proclaimed by Noman Çelebicihan and Cafer Seydamet at December 26th, 1917. IOTL it was destroyed by the Bolsheviks in January 1918. Now without Bolshevik threats like IOTL, I don't think Crimean People's Republic would be simply dissolved by Germany. Sure they can if they wanted to, but was a large Ukraine really important for Germany at that time?
Ok. But why shouldn't the inhabitants there be let as their own state ? I can't see why a larger Ukraine which includes the Crimean Peninsula very important to Germany.
Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy
Banned
The 4 alternatives are:
1) A Tatar state under German protection, even though the Tatars did not have a majority or even a plurality.
2) A state under German protection, ignoring ethnic interests.
3) Annexation to the Ukraine, even though they don't seem to have been too interested in it. I don't think Crimea had ever been Ukrainian before 1954. (The Nazi-organized Reichkommissariat Ukraine had a district of Crimea that was actually north of the peninsula.)
4) Annexation to Germany. I personally think they'd go for this one.
1) A Tatar state under German protection, even though the Tatars did not have a majority or even a plurality.
2) A state under German protection, ignoring ethnic interests.
3) Annexation to the Ukraine, even though they don't seem to have been too interested in it. I don't think Crimea had ever been Ukrainian before 1954. (The Nazi-organized Reichkommissariat Ukraine had a district of Crimea that was actually north of the peninsula.)
4) Annexation to Germany. I personally think they'd go for this one.