Women ready to combat in WWII

Reading this other thread so polemic about segregated homosexual units, and without judging if it is troll or not, I was thinking in initiate another thread with a more plaussible and less bizarre premise, as we know the Soviet Union created authentic only women military units in the case of Air Force (and with great success, the soviet women pilots showed have a great degree of will and technic in fighting) also there were women in other active military positions like snipers, tank drivers... etc.

So, apart of the presence in other countries of women actively in partisan guerrilla activities, How we could have to made possible that a situation like the happened in Soviet Union (a more or less active participation of women in combat situation) could happen in other countries principally Germany, United States and United Kingdom?

Could be this possible? and in what plaussible way could be it be achieved?

Women also served in special forces in both the European and Pacific theatres.

Now suppose the Nazis had kept attacking fighter comand rather than pursue the pointless policy of terrorism with their bombers. Supposed things start looking desparate.

We were making lots of aircraft but were short of pilots. Might either the women doing the ferrying or an "eagle" squadron of volunteers be used.

I also wonder whether this might have happened had there been much of an airforce for Loyalist Spain.

Maybe some WAFS delievering fighters and/or bombers get jumped by the Luftwaffe/IJN. I don't think they were allowed to transport across the Atlantic, but if they were... (and making the assumption that they were armed) well, I could see a dogfight happening, in probably after D-day if its in Europe.

Now as to who would win? By that point both the IJN and Luftwaffe were mostly depleted of experienced men, so it would be a battle between combat 'rookies'. It may boil down to luck and having 1 more plane than the other guy

Derek Jackson said:

Now suppose the Nazis had kept attacking fighter comand rather than pursue the pointless policy of terrorism with their bombers. Supposed things start looking desparate.

We were making lots of aircraft but were short of pilots. Might either the women doing the ferrying or an "eagle" squadron of volunteers be used.

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The women of the ATA who delivered the aircraft from the factory's to the RAF airfields often had considerably more hours than the new pilots who took the machines into battle only to die on their first mission. It must have broken their hearts that they could not fly the machines on operational missions with all of their experience.

Just take a look at these women's achievements and consider how they might have dealt with operational missions.

Anne Wood-Kelly an American ATA pilot made this website I have linked to. Among the other women pilots were a ballet dancer, an international ice hockey player and a stunt pilot from an air circus!

Originally posted by Derek Jackson
Women also served in special forces in both the European and Pacific theatres.

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In Pacific Theatres? Active combat missions? Like Commandos? Interesting, do you have more information about this?

Also I was thinking, it is clear it seems that the japanese because cultural thinking seemed that they would not employ women combat units (other thing is that women had formed partisan units during a possible Allied invasion of Japan), but also and this thing become to my brain, they employed women in nurse military units? I say this because I don´t remember to have seen any japanese nurse unit.

Originally posted by Derek Jackson
Now suppose the Nazis had kept attacking fighter comand rather than pursue the pointless policy of terrorism with their bombers. Supposed things start looking desparate.

We were making lots of aircraft but were short of pilots. Might either the women doing the ferrying or an "eagle" squadron of volunteers be used.

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I think IIRC that women pilot transport units were formed during WWII in United States and I suppose the Commonwealth and United Kingdom, respect to Eagle squadron of volunteers it would be very interesting, I expect that we would see some bios of them in a future AH wikipedia.

By the way some links in wiki to some women that saw real combat in WWII as regular fighters: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lydia_Litvyak
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yevgeniya_Rudneva
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katya_Budanova

I think that it had been great that such examples had been as in Soviet Union more or less in a general way in western nations.

Originally posted by Derek Jackson
I also wonder whether this might have happened had there been much of an airforce for Loyalist Spain.

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As we know there were more or less a lot of women militians fighting in the Spanish Civil war in the republican side (the most part in anarchist units), it seemed but that with the exceptions of these militia units, Spain showed a great degree of conservative thinking in this aspect (and in fact like show the elections of 1933 the majority of the women population in Spain during the 1930´s were more of the conservative and religious kind than the progressist represented for example by Federica Montseny
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federica_Montseny
There were not any effort to try to integrate women in some kind of active military duty after the more or less general dissolution of militia units IIRC.

The things could change some but if a Spanish Republic victorious in the war could feel some kind of need to emule the Soviet Union when the World War II Barbarossa operation begins and when it is clear that the soviets employ women in military active units.

And respect to Germany? We have Hanna Reitsch: http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanna_Reitsch

It is possible to defeat the nazi thinking respect to women and made of Hanna and others not only exceptions but the beginning of some kind of similar employment of women in Germany in World War II like the soviets made?

Originally posted by The Dean
The women of the ATA who delivered the aircraft from the factory's to the RAF airfields often had considerably more hours than the new pilots who took the machines into battle only to die on their first mission. It must have broken their hearts that they could not fly the machines on operational missions with all of their experience.

Just take a look at these women's achievements and consider how they might have dealt with operational missions.
[..]
Anne Wood-Kelly an American ATA pilot made this website I have linked to. Among the other women pilots were a ballet dancer, an international ice hockey player and a stunt pilot from an air circus!

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I put this link in favourites of Internet in my PC, real nice site, and also an interesting site to have information for an AH World War II where apart of some great POD that made diverges the World War substantially in this AH World War truly we have real combat women fighter units in the UK.

A pity that this not happens in OTL, the women mentioned in the website had had today great bios in wiki.

BTW: I suppose that western women in these units feeled some kind of rage seeing how the soviets employed women in combat units while in western nations they only could be used as pilots to transport fighters.

Had some defenders in western nations between military officers during World War II(and naturally in this time and in this case they would be men these military officers) the women that wanted to fly figther missions or some kind of regular duty in real regular combat units?
What are the opinions of Eisenhower, or Patton or other generals and officials about the possible employ of women in active combat units?

Iñaki said:

I think IIRC that women pilot transport units were formed during WWII in United States and I suppose the Commonwealth and United Kingdom, respect to Eagle squadron of volunteers it would be very interesting, I expect that we would see some bios of them in a future AH wikipedia.

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WASP
...............

I think using Hitlers ego might do the trick for Nazis having women in combat positions:
Have the Soviets start using women in combat positions way before Barbarossa and he might very well decide to demonstate to the world, that Aryan women are at least as good out of sheer mine-is-bigger-than-yours sentiment even if he's otherwise opposed to the idea.

During WWI, they had the all-female Women's Death Commandos infantry force or something in Russia, while in WWII (also in Russia), they had an all-female fighter squadron called "The Night Witches."

Perhaps the WWI experiment is more successful (or its successes get more attention) so qualified women are permitted to serve as something besides WAVES or WACS.

Given the lack of political correctness at this time and place, you'd get women held to the exact same physical standards as men (if not higher ones) and so there probably wouldn't be that many female soldiers, pilots, etc.

I think, at most, you might get an unusual minor historical figure (think the equivalent of Rodger Young or Alvin York), not something world-changing.

ISTR a story about Hanna Reitsch, where she went to Goering and wanted to copy the Soviet AF's use of female combat pilots, and Goering's response was : "We're not that desperate yet!" In a way, she did see combat, flying her lover, General Robert Ritter von Greim, to and from Berlin in late April, '45-to see Hitler, and later to go to Hamburg on Hitler's orders to arrest Himmler. The Germans did have some female pilots as ferry pilots, and one of them, Beate Uhse, flew a plane into Gatow on April 24th, 1945, and went to her apartment in Berlin, collected her baby son and his nanny, and flew them to Hamburg. (she later became famous in the '60s for running a chain of adult bookstores)

Women in combat? It wasn't a good idea in WWII and is still not a good idea.

I could see women in aircraft, but not in ground combat. I'm an ROTC cadet and I've seen the problems women can cause in only a training environment. In one instance, out of the five female cadets in my platoon, four went to the sick bay on more than suspicious "illnesses". ("Nausea" being especially popular) The other, who tried to pretend she'd hurt her ankle, but kept switching back and forth and thus tipped off her fake, was openly weeping every time I went to check on her in the patrol base.

In addition, female fitness standards in the military are borderline failing for males. The also cause severe psychological problems in male troops (I reference you to On Killing by Dave Grossman).

It sounds all wonderful and equal from behind the armchair while pounding down vault and pork rinds, but it doesn't flesh out in the real world.

(puts down the pork rinds and offers an opinion)

The only premise I can see for large numbers of women in combat units (and then only in specialty positions, perhaps as snipers and fighter pilots, which do not require constant all-out physical effort), would be a disastrous loss of troops. Say a complete BEF wipeout at Dunkirk, or a complete failure of Overlord. Now, maybe in a manpower crunch, the Allies start looking for ways to stretch their "man"power.

Jim_Steele said:

Women in combat? It wasn't a good idea in WWII and is still not a good idea.

I could see women in aircraft, but not in ground combat. I'm an ROTC cadet and I've seen the problems women can cause in only a training environment. In one instance, out of the five female cadets in my platoon, four went to the sick bay on more than suspicious "illnesses". ("Nausea" being especially popular) The other, who tried to pretend she'd hurt her ankle, but kept switching back and forth and thus tipped off her fake, was openly weeping every time I went to check on her in the patrol base.

In addition, female fitness standards in the military are borderline failing for males. The also cause severe psychological problems in male troops (I reference you to On Killing by Dave Grossman).

It sounds all wonderful and equal from behind the armchair while pounding down vault and pork rinds, but it doesn't flesh out in the real world.

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I don't doubt your word on this one, but it seems to me that problem you are describing isn't, that they are females, but that they aren't held to the same standards as their male counterparts.

I think it could be a workable option in many wars, if people were willing to hold women to the same physical fitness standards.

Jim_Steele said:

Women in combat? It wasn't a good idea in WWII and is still not a good idea.

I could see women in aircraft, but not in ground combat. I'm an ROTC cadet and I've seen the problems women can cause in only a training environment. In one instance, out of the five female cadets in my platoon, four went to the sick bay on more than suspicious "illnesses". ("Nausea" being especially popular) The other, who tried to pretend she'd hurt her ankle, but kept switching back and forth and thus tipped off her fake, was openly weeping every time I went to check on her in the patrol base.

In addition, female fitness standards in the military are borderline failing for males. The also cause severe psychological problems in male troops (I reference you to On Killing by Dave Grossman).

It sounds all wonderful and equal from behind the armchair while pounding down vault and pork rinds, but it doesn't flesh out in the real world.

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Neroon said:

I don't doubt your word on this one, but it seems to me that problem you are describing isn't, that they are females, but that they aren't held to the same standards as their male counterparts.

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I second Neroon - Denmark has and have had women troops in her missions in Former Yugoslavia, Iraq and Afghanistan and no reports to their disadvantage have showed up.
One of the tank gunners in Yugoslavia teaching the Serbs a lesson was a woman...
Jim_Steele: you counter that with good leadership...

arctic warrior said:

Jim_Steele: you counter that with good leadership...

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Acutally here i have to speak out for Jim. I don´t think the problem is leadership either, but given that this is the modern U.S. of A. we are talking about here, whoever´s in charge has basically 2 options in the situations that Jim is describing:
1. Make allowances for females he wouldn´t make for males.
2. Become that target of a "sexism" witch-hunt.

The problem is a political one. No a gender or a leadership one IMO.
Perhaps they should borrow a few instructors from amongst female Spetznatz?

In my "Superpower Empire" TL, some Chinese women joined the underground resistance against Japanese occupation in 1934 and, thanks to lobbying by Kang Tongbi and other activists, others were allowed to formally join the Chinese military on a voluntary basis in 1938. See the stories "The Thousand Iron Phoenixes" and "Valkyries".

Neroon said:

Acutally here i have to speak out for Jim. I don´t think the problem is leadership either, but given that this is the modern U.S. of A. we are talking about here, whoever´s in charge has basically 2 options in the situations that Jim is describing:
1. Make allowances for females he wouldn´t make for males.
2. Become that target of a "sexism" witch-hunt.

The problem is a political one. No a gender or a leadership one IMO.
Perhaps they should borrow a few instructors from amongst female Spetznatz?

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You guy's seems to be pretty bad off then - being a leader you have to identify what the problem is, if they can't or won't do this or that and then report sick - make them do or quit!
That has nothing whatsoever to do with sexism witch-hunt this is leadership!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If those women have some problems monthly or whatever; adresse that problem to solve it - they knew the conditions when entering said service, didn't they??? But don't as a leader tell me, I suspect - talk to the person, get a picture of whats the problem and solve it in some way...

Col. David Hackworth wrote extensively about women in the military. He said at the very least, men and women ought to be trained separately. He talked about how during Basic, sergeants had to engage in "f*** patrols" to keep shenanignas from breaking out. This sort of thing often led to problems in discipline--he said sergeants had threatened to cry rape if female soldiers approached them, owing to the trouble that could cause (allegations of abuse of authority, for example).

http://www.hackworth.com/article04032002c.html

That's the article--go down towards the end and you'll see the stuff to which I was referring.

Not to mention widespread pregnancies can be a bit of a problem re: overall effectiveness.

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-259610.html

Before someone tries to morally equivocate and say "what about homosexual soldiers," the number of homosexual soldiers is likely rather small, while the number of heterosexual soldiers is enormous. Even if homosexuals were allowed to serve openly, the trouble that might cause would be tiny compared to some of the stuff that goes on with heterosexuals.

MerryPrankster said:

Col. David Hackworth wrote extensively about women in the military. He said at the very least, men and women ought to be trained separately. He talked about how during Basic, sergeants had to engage in "f*** patrols" to keep shenanignas from breaking out. This sort of thing often led to problems in discipline--he said sergeants had threatened to cry rape if female soldiers approached them, owing to the trouble that could cause (allegations of abuse of authority, for example).

(there was an article on his web-site hackworth.com, but I'm having problems finding it. Perhaps it was "Porcelain Soldiers")

Not to mention widespread pregnancies can be a bit of a problem re: overall effectiveness.

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-259610.html

Before someone tries to morally equivocate and say "what about homosexual soldiers," the number of homosexual soldiers is likely rather small, while the number of heterosexual soldiers is enormous. Even if homosexuals were allowed to serve openly, the trouble that might cause would be tiny compared to some of the stuff that goes on with heterosexuals.

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Did anybody expect differently with the majority of those being young and fit? After all physical attraction does count... ever heard of anti-conceptual means?
Sounds more to me of lack of maturity of all involved parties...