Ottoman Empire beats a European Power

On its own, a la Japan in 1904, the Ottoman Empire defeats a major European Power with about the same decisiveness that Japan won the Russo-Japanese War. Ottoman troops must be in possession (but not necessarily annex) some of the territory of the said power (i.e., Ottoman troops in Sicily, the Crimea, Croatia, etc.).

POD must be after 1829, and the victory must take place before 1899.
 

Cherico

Banned
oh thats easy just have the greeks pick a fight over some
Island in the medterianian, their naval power is enimic enough
to be crushed by the ottomans
 

NapoleonXIV

Banned
oh thats easy just have the greeks pick a fight over some
Island in the medterianian, their naval power is enimic enough
to be crushed by the ottomans

The Greeks weren't a European "power" in the 19thc, and aren't now, matter of fact.

Could they maybe turn the tables somehow on the Russians in the Russo Turkic 1870's thingie? I dunno, might be close to ASB, or maybe not, strange things do happen in wars sometimes.

Reason I bring it up is that 1. Its a considerable power 2. Didn't everybody kick Russia's butt in the 19thc one time or another?:p 3. It would make a substantial difference, to the Turks and everyone else
 
On its own, a la Japan in 1904, the Ottoman Empire defeats a major European Power with about the same decisiveness that Japan won the Russo-Japanese War. Ottoman troops must be in possession (but not necessarily annex) some of the territory of the said power (i.e., Ottoman troops in Sicily, the Crimea, Croatia, etc.).

POD must be after 1829, and the victory must take place before 1899.

Bright day
Some people could argue, that "decisiveness" of Japan's victory is overstated and was made possible only by British monetary support...
 
Japan only won because of the Russian revolution in 1905, which is also what the Ottomans need if they want to defeat Russia on their own in the 19th century.
 

Rockingham

Banned
On its own, a la Japan in 1904, the Ottoman Empire defeats a major European Power with about the same decisiveness that Japan won the Russo-Japanese War. Ottoman troops must be in possession (but not necessarily annex) some of the territory of the said power (i.e., Ottoman troops in Sicily, the Crimea, Croatia, etc.).

POD must be after 1829, and the victory must take place before 1899.
To me, it seems just about the only posobilities are Italy, AH and Russia.... the others are just t0o far away and powerful

Is it acceptable if the rival is occupying parts of the Ottoman Empire as well? Is a status quo peace accepptable, especially if they aren't the aggresor? Can another state give monetary or diplomatic support?(to the Ottomans)
The Greeks weren't a European "power" in the 19thc, and aren't now, matter of fact.

Could they maybe turn the tables somehow on the Russians in the Russo Turkic 1870's thingie? I dunno, might be close to ASB, or maybe not, strange things do happen in wars sometimes.

Reason I bring it up is that 1. Its a considerable power 2. Didn't everybody kick Russia's butt in the 19thc one time or another?:p 3. It would make a substantial difference, to the Turks and everyone else
Depends how you define a victory. Regaining even de-jure control over both Romanias is imposible without a major POD, or heavy intervention by another state. But even their de jure influence in Romania was limited.... perhaps they regain Wallachia, and Moldavia becomes a demiltarised neutral buffer? Combined with some minor territorial gains in the Caucasus, this may well be an improvement for the Ottomans on the European stage.
I think that would fufill the terms put forth by FenkMaster.


Japan only won because of the Russian revolution in 1905, which is also what the Ottomans need if they want to defeat Russia on their own in the 19th century.
The Russian population became discontent with the 1877-78 war rather quicky OTL, and they were clearly winning, so if Russia does rather worse then they did OTL, suferring some reverses, and the war drags on a year or 2 longer, you
might see some significant revolution...indeed it would need less then this to set off a revolution in Poland.


Perhaps if the Ottoman treatment of rebels is less harsh, but the the Russians declare war anyway, we could see some form of support from Britain, coupled with a few less blunders by the Ottomans and a few more by the Russians...:confused:

As for Italy, might an earlier war over north Africa or ottoman suport for Naples be a pretext? The combine Napolitan/Ottoman navy would significantly larger then Italy's.

AH....maybe not so likely after all(Germany or Russia), unless they initiae the war. Even then Russia will probaly suport them, so the Ottomjan position seems pretty hopeless:rolleyes:
 
Russia easily defeats Japan (throwing it into chaos and annexing part of it as new colony), then immediatly turns towards the Ottomans, who decisively defeat them.

No defeat in the Russian-Japan war would have let them overlook the large problems with the army et all.
 
On its own, a la Japan in 1904, the Ottoman Empire defeats a major European Power with about the same decisiveness that Japan won the Russo-Japanese War. Ottoman troops must be in possession (but not necessarily annex) some of the territory of the said power (i.e., Ottoman troops in Sicily, the Crimea, Croatia, etc.).

POD must be after 1829, and the victory must take place before 1899.
Best chance for this (and best results from same) was the Russo-Turkish mess in the 1870s. I understand it was pretty close run as it was, and a counterattack through Caucasia would result in the preconditions you state.

HTG
 
Could the Ottomans defeat the Italians in that war they had in the early 1900's?

Not really. The Ottomans had a tiny garrison in Libya that was mostly irregulars and the officer system was corrupt.

Could they maybe turn the tables somehow on the Russians in the Russo Turkic 1870's thingie?

That would be possible if Turkey wasn't the only country fighting Russia. I wrote a TL where Austria joins the German Empire. They have a war with the Russians in the 1870s which Turkey joins on the German side. That approach might be a little complicated, because there'd be countless butterfly effects in Europe and the Scramble for Africa.

Speaking of that, what would you need to have an Ottoman Empire participating in the Scramble of Africa?
 
Now I am no experct but I seem to rember Abdul saying that if the Ottomans Defence Minister had not been shot they would have won the war of 1878.
 
Speaking of that, what would you need to have an Ottoman Empire participating in the Scramble of Africa?

Victory in '78 could prevent France taking Tunisia, and would make the Ottomans more willing to intervene in Egypt in '82, preventing Britain to take it.
 
That's just preventing the loss of already owned territory. How could you get an Ottoman Empire actively expanding its interests in Africa?
 
On its own, a la Japan in 1904, the Ottoman Empire defeats a major European Power with about the same decisiveness that Japan won the Russo-Japanese War. Ottoman troops must be in possession (but not necessarily annex) some of the territory of the said power (i.e., Ottoman troops in Sicily, the Crimea, Croatia, etc.).

POD must be after 1829, and the victory must take place before 1899.

1830: Sick of the corruption in the Government, a General seizes the royal family, defeat the Royal Guards attempt to retake control, and rams needed reforms through, especially in the Army.

1831: Military reforms are complete. Staff Officers are no longer just the eyes and ears of a General, they are empowered to give orders and take command (basically the German System).

And I lost my train of thought :eek:
 
1830: Sick of the corruption in the Government, a General seizes the royal family, defeat the Royal Guards attempt to retake control, and rams needed reforms through, especially in the Army.

1831: Military reforms are complete. Staff Officers are no longer just the eyes and ears of a General, they are empowered to give orders and take command (basically the German System).

And I lost my train of thought :eek:

That just might be a good POD. However, details are going to make everything, as well as which general leads the coup.
 
Bright day
Some people could argue, that "decisiveness" of Japan's victory is overstated and was made possible only by British monetary support...

Well, then make it so there is no understatement of decisiveness here.

Japan only won because of the Russian revolution in 1905, which is also what the Ottomans need if they want to defeat Russia on their own in the 19th century.

Doesn't have to be Russia...and it has to be before 1899.

Is it acceptable if the rival is occupying parts of the Ottoman Empire as well? Is a status quo peace accepptable, especially if they aren't the aggresor? Can another state give monetary or diplomatic support?(to the Ottomans)

No military support to the Ottomans, no occupation by foreign power, and there must be a change from the status quo. I highly doubt that anyone would consider a return to the status quo a decisive victory for their nation except the Americans (myself included). :p

Depends how you define a victory. Regaining even de-jure control over both Romanias is imposible without a major POD, or heavy intervention by another state. But even their de jure influence in Romania was limited.... perhaps they regain Wallachia, and Moldavia becomes a demiltarised neutral buffer? Combined with some minor territorial gains in the Caucasus, this may well be an improvement for the Ottomans on the European stage.
I think that would fufill the terms put forth by FenkMaster.

This would be a victory, but you would need to include juicy details about the Russian Black Sea being destroyed, while the army suffered from repeated defeats and how the Ottoman army ended the war in Odessa. :) Just an example.

Then it won't be Ottomans anymore then...

He didn't say the general killed the royal family, just that he made sure he was in charge.
 

maverick

Banned
Maybe the Ottomans could win the war of 1878 in a world with a reformist Sultan that brings German and british advisors to modernize the army, while there's at the same time a Russia with no reforms of Alexander II, or with a more authoritarian Nicolas I...
 
Japan only won because of the Russian revolution in 1905, which is also what the Ottomans need if they want to defeat Russia on their own in the 19th century.

? But the revolution came after the war, not during it. IIRC.

An idea: WI Mehmet Ali took over the Ottoman Empire? He might pull a Meiji.
 
That's just preventing the loss of already owned territory. How could you get an Ottoman Empire actively expanding its interests in Africa?

Why should them? The Ottomans were facing over-extension and knew it. I think that dominating a quarter of Africa is enough. There would be expeditions to secure inmediate areas, like that piece of OTL Lybia held then by the Sanussis, Darfur, Equatoria, etc. It's also possible to see an Ottoman Eritrea, as it was briefly occupied by Egypt before the Ottomans ordered to pull out and then Italy bought the place. But I don't think they would, could or should expand more in the Black Continent.
 
Top