If you wait you may become King of Sweden

[arctic warrior]

If you wait you may become King of Sweden!

The saying refer to the situation in Sweden 1808-09 when during the Napoleonic wars had lost Finland to Russia and tried to conquer Norway in compensation for lands lost.

Under Russian pressure Denmark 1808 declared war on Sweden. Russia moved into Finland and Sweden tried to take Trondheims Len in central Norway. Field Marshall Duke Christian August, regent of Norway led the successful defence and repulsed the Swedish assault.
Marshall Bernadotte was to land in Sweden with a French army of 26000 a large part of which were Spanish troops. When Napoleon occupied Spain the Royal Navy transported 9000 Spanish troops from Nyborg in Funen to Spain.
1809 the last of Napoleons troops left Denmark.
The Swedish invasion army negotiated a settlement in Norway and the marched on Stockholm toppling mad King Gustav 4. King Frederick 6 of Denmark were offered the throne but rejected on the grounds of the Swedish coup-makers being insurgents. Gustav’s uncle Karl 13 was then elected King but being without offspring a heir was needed and Duke Christian August was then approached and at the peace negotiations in Jönköping December 10., 1809 Frederick 6 allows Christian August to accept the offer. The Swedish hope was that Christian August would be willing to incorporate Norway into Sweden as a compensation for the loss of Finland. This was rejected by Christian August.
Christian August dies 1810 of a heartattack and Frederick 6 is once again brought up as successor but Sweden wants Christian August’s brother, Frederick Christian who is blockaded in his home by Frederick 6th because of fears of having the age old strife of Sleswig-Holstein versus Denmark reinvigorated.
The Swedes then go for an approval of Frederick Christian by Napoleon but ends up with Bernadotte.

But WI Frederick 6 had accepted the Swedish proposal?

[wannis]

A united Scandinavia...
The rest would have probably depended on Frederick VI's conduct. Was he the absolutist type, or would he have respected Sweden's own laws and Riksdag?
I assume he would still go along with Napoleon (not much choice); would anyone have wanted to separate Sweden and Denmark-Norway again at Vienna?
I'd assume with all three Scandinavian nations united under one crown, there may have been less reason for Norwegian independence. I don't know the dynamics - what would have been more likely, three kindoms with separate institutions under one crown, or a real union, with a common government and Riksdag (in some kind of federal structure)?
Would such a united Scandinavia have fared better in the equivalent to OTL German-Danish war? Would it have happened?

[arctic warrior]

Originally Posted by wannis

A united Scandinavia...
The rest would have probably depended on Frederick VI's conduct. Was he the absolutist type, or would he have respected Sweden's own laws and Riksdag?
I assume he would still go along with Napoleon (not much choice); would anyone have wanted to separate Sweden and Denmark-Norway again at Vienna?
I'd assume with all three Scandinavian nations united under one crown, there may have been less reason for Norwegian independence. I don't know the dynamics - what would have been more likely, three kindoms with separate institutions under one crown, or a real union, with a common government and Riksdag (in some kind of federal structure)?
Would such a united Scandinavia have fared better in the equivalent to OTL German-Danish war? Would it have happened?

He was something of an absolutist if not as bad as commonly held. IMO he would have respected laws and the Riksdag - probably going for a personal union.
This could give the opportunity to get off Napoleon but that would be somekind of uneasy neutrality. On the other hand it would be able to avoid I think the famine of Norway by having grain ships hug the west coast of Sweden. And Denmark had had its navy removed by the British - how could it get any worse? But 1813 Frederick could join the coalition and thus keep the Kingdoms together! That would keep Norway from independence keeping its status in the Danish Kingdom.
I know too little on Vienna to make any guess on possible separation, but given the attitude of the Zar wouldn't he let Frederick keep it all? Keeping Swedish Pommerania would spell trouble 1848. But again I know too little of Vienna, but Oddball may have an answer.
For starters I'd envision a personal union with Denmark-Norway, Holstein and Sweden plus maybe Swedish Pommerania. Later on Scandinavism might root to make the foundation for a common parliament/Riksdag perhaps with several chambers/chancelleries but retaining the three Kingdoms (that would somehow be in line with Denmark and Norway, but I don't know if it would offend the Swedes?).
Then come 1848 with a much better prepared Danish-Norwegian-Swedish Kingdom. With an internal market and having a merchant fleet, a large navy, larger army, metals, agricultural products and a larger Norwegian population - less or no famine 1807-14!
But come 1854/1864 I am unsure of events.

[arctic warrior]

Territory of Danish-Norwegian-Swedish Union 1809. And of course The Faeroe Islands, Iceland and Greenland.

[Oddball]

Originally Posted by arctic warrior

If you wait you may become King of Sweden!

The saying refer to the situation in Sweden 1808-09 when during the Napoleonic wars had lost Finland to Russia and tried to conquer Norway in compensation for lands lost.

Under Russian pressure Denmark 1808 declared war on Sweden. Russia moved into Finland and Sweden tried to take Trondheims Len in central Norway. Field Marshall Duke Christian August, regent of Norway led the successful defence and repulsed the Swedish assault.
Marshall Bernadotte was to land in Sweden with a French army of 26000 a large part of which were Spanish troops. When Napoleon occupied Spain the Royal Navy transported 9000 Spanish troops from Nyborg in Funen to Spain.
1809 the last of Napoleons troops left Denmark.
The Swedish invasion army negotiated a settlement in Norway and the marched on Stockholm toppling mad King Gustav 4. King Frederick 6 of Denmark were offered the throne but rejected on the grounds of the Swedish coup-makers being insurgents. Gustav’s uncle Karl 13 was then elected King but being without offspring a heir was needed and Duke Christian August was then approached and at the peace negotiations in Jönköping December 10., 1809 Frederick 6 allows Christian August to accept the offer. The Swedish hope was that Christian August would be willing to incorporate Norway into Sweden as a compensation for the loss of Finland. This was rejected by Christian August.
Christian August dies 1810 of a heartattack and Frederick 6 is once again brought up as successor but Sweden wants Christian August’s brother, Frederick Christian who is blockaded in his home by Frederick 6th because of fears of having the age old strife of Sleswig-Holstein versus Denmark reinvigorated.
The Swedes then go for an approval of Frederick Christian by Napoleon but ends up with Bernadotte.

But WI Frederick 6 had accepted the Swedish proposal?

Oh, Christian August is one of my favourite late Scandinavian POD's
(along with the Danish foreign minister Bernsdorff).

But I belive you have mixed up a few things here. Tough Im one holyday untill next week, and cannot access my reference "library"

I will have to come back to this

[Oddball]

Originally Posted by arctic warrior

He was something of an absolutist if not as bad as commonly held. IMO he would have respected laws and the Riksdag - probably going for a personal union.
This could give the opportunity to get off Napoleon but that would be somekind of uneasy neutrality. On the other hand it would be able to avoid I think the famine of Norway by having grain ships hug the west coast of Sweden. And Denmark had had its navy removed by the British - how could it get any worse? But 1813 Frederick could join the coalition and thus keep the Kingdoms together! That would keep Norway from independence keeping its status in the Danish Kingdom.
I know too little on Vienna to make any guess on possible separation, but given the attitude of the Zar wouldn't he let Frederick keep it all? Keeping Swedish Pommerania would spell trouble 1848. But again I know too little of Vienna, but Oddball may have an answer.
For starters I'd envision a personal union with Denmark-Norway, Holstein and Sweden plus maybe Swedish Pommerania. Later on Scandinavism might root to make the foundation for a common parliament/Riksdag perhaps with several chambers/chancelleries but retaining the three Kingdoms (that would somehow be in line with Denmark and Norway, but I don't know if it would offend the Swedes?).
Then come 1848 with a much better prepared Danish-Norwegian-Swedish Kingdom. With an internal market and having a merchant fleet, a large navy, larger army, metals, agricultural products and a larger Norwegian population - less or no famine 1807-14!
But come 1854/1864 I am unsure of events.

I think it all depends very mutch on what side Frederick comes down on when he is chosen as heir to the Swedish crown. And when this happens!

IMHO you wont see a danish change of side until Napoleon clearly is loosing in Russia.

At Vienna I find it reasonable that the three countries is "allowed" keep a singel king, but then as a union of three independent kingdoms.

Anyhow I find it unlikely that Pommerania wont be given to Prussia at Vienna.

There is also the problem of Frederick VI himself beeing heirless.

Anyhow, a Scandinavia with a singel king and close ties to Britain would make for interesting times if the second Slesvig war still happens...

[arctic warrior]

Originally Posted by Oddball

Oh, Christian August is one of my favourite late Scandinavian POD's
(along with the Danish foreign minister Bernsdorff).

But I belive you have mixed up a few things here. Tough Im one holyday untill next week, and cannot access my reference "library"

I will have to come back to this

Thanks look forward to that - what i'v come up with is somewhat confusing as to the events and especially the death of Christian August. In some sources mixed up with the death of Karl.

Originally Posted by Oddball

I think it all depends very mutch on what side Frederick comes down on when he is chosen as heir to the Swedish crown. And when this happens!

IMHO you wont see a danish change of side until Napoleon clearly is loosing in Russia.

At Vienna I find it reasonable that the three countries is "allowed" keep a singel king, but then as a union of three independent kingdoms.

Anyhow I find it unlikely that Pommerania wont be given to Prussia at Vienna.

There is also the problem of Frederick VI himself beeing heirless.

Anyhow, a Scandinavia with a singel king and close ties to Britain would make for interesting times if the second Slesvig war still happens...

If Christian August could live on until late 1812 and Frederick get the offer then AND accept, he should be able to join the coalition and keep all but at Vienna the three Kingsdoms are reformed into a Personal Union with Frederick as King. Pommerania goes to Prussia and Lauenburg does not go to Denmark.

The succession to Frederick will be solved someway and make for some interesting events unfolding.

Then liberalism - 1848 and pan-scandinavism!

[Analytical Engine]

This is one of the PoD's in Ill Bethisad.

[arctic warrior]

Originally Posted by Analytical Engine

This is one of the PoD's in Ill Bethisad.

Quite interesting but different preconditions.
I have something else in mind for the Scandinavian Union.

[arctic warrior]

On we go then with the TL.
Comments and well founded critique are most welcome.
---
1807 July, Tsar Alexander and Napoleon meet in Tilsit for peace negotiations.
The Danish army is stationed in Holstein as an address to Britain of the Danish intentions to fight Napoleon, but Denmark-Norway wants freedom of the seas and Foreign Secretary Canning is of the opinion that Denmark is too week to resist Napoleon in the present situation.
August 16., a British fleet lands 30000 troops in Sjaelland and on August 29., Wellington fights the Sjaelland Landevaern (Home Guard) at Koege. September 2. the bombardment of Copenhagen is initiated and on September 7. Copenhagen capitulates. The Danish Navy is the prize of the British.
Because of the loss of the Navy Denmark and Norway are separated and a government commission is established in Norway headed by Duke Christian August.

1808 Tsar Alexander forces Denmark into war with Sweden. Sweden attacks Norway. 26000 French and Spanish troops under Marshall Bernadotte enter Jutland in anticipation of being landed in Scania.

1809 The Swedish army attacking Norway is repulsed and then marches on Stockholm toppling King Gustav 4. King Frederick 6 of Denmark-Norway is offered the Swedish crown but rejects the offer. Gustav’s Uncle Karl is then offered the crown and takes it as Karl 13. Duke Christian August, regent of Norway is offered the position as successor, as Karl 13 has no offspring and Frederick 6 allows this.
The events in Spain makes the British transport the 9000 Spanish troops in Denmark away.

[Thande]

Interesting idea.

I believe this warrants the use of -

[Faeelin]

Neat idea.

::Vague comments::

[Oddball]

Originally Posted by Thande

Interesting idea.

I believe this warrants the use of -

You know Thande, I actualy got a bit sad when I saw this reply

Making fun of "wanks" or "chliches" IMHO belongs in the OT forums and perhaps in the various general map-threads.

To come here and mock IMHO quite nice and civiliced discussions with drawings like that is realy sad. And it does not help that you first state that it is interesting...

And by the way, if we are going to start mocking eachothers ideas and scenarios with "wank" and "chliches," we can just close down this site since quite many of ATL's already have been done to death.

That is beside the OT-threads were all sorts of new and wonderfull ideas pops up all the time...

[Ian the Admin]

Originally Posted by Thande

Interesting idea.

I believe this warrants the use of -

No, people discussing a serious WI really doesn't warrant coming in with a mocking GIF. What the heck?

[Thande]

Originally Posted by Ian the Admin

No, people discussing a serious WI really doesn't warrant coming in with a mocking GIF. What the heck?

My apologies, that was misjudged.

On a more serious note, I appreciate this TL because I'm intending to cover contemporary Scandinavian affairs fairly soon in LTTW and it's nice to have this grounding in (more) OTL events written by a native

[arctic warrior]

Now I move into the realm of uncertainty. I'm trying to catch up on Swedish history and comments and critique, well founded that is, will be much appreciated.
---
1810 Frederick ask Christian August to ensure the safe passage of grain ships from Denmark to Norway to combat famine. Because of his love of Norway, Christian August allows this which in the future will account for much Norwegian trust in the Royal House.
Frederick posts a prescript to the effect of Danish being church, school and legal language in parts of Slesvig-Holstein where the common peoples speak Danish.

1811 The gathering of La Grande Armee commences.
The establishing of the Norwegian University.

1812 May, the war between Russia and the Osmannic Empire is ended by a peace treaty in Bukarest. Russia gains Bessarabia and parts of Moldova.
June, the War of 1812 between Britain and the USA.
Napoleon and La Grande Armee enters Russia.
September, after the battle of Borodino the Russian army retreats and Napoleon enters Moscow on the 14. that burns on the next day.
October, Battle of QueenstownHeights. Napoleon leaves Moscow on the 19.
November, Duke Christian August dies of a heart attack. King Frederick 6 is offered the position as successor to the Swedish throne and accepts. Even if some in Sweden would have preferred Christian August’s brother Duke Frederick Christian. But with Napoleon on the run the prospect of uniting all of Scandinavia into one powerful Kingdom that will be able to stand up against Emperor, Tsar and Kings is too tempting and Frederick 6 then is the stronger candidate. King Frederick goes to Stockholm for formal acknowledgement by the Swedish Riksdag. Frederick furthermore breaks away from Napoleon and enters into coalition with Russia, Prussia and Britain. The Scandinavian Kingdoms are to field an army of 50000 in Northern Germany. Britain is going to subsidy the Swedish contingent of 30000. Frederick insists on Prince Friedrich of Hesse as commander and field marshall von Fersen is commander of the Swedish contingent.

[Oddball]

Originally Posted by arctic warrior

1810 Frederick ask Christian August to ensure the safe passage of grain ships from Denmark to Norway to combat famine. Because of his love of Norway, Christian August allows this which in the future will account for much Norwegian trust in the Royal House.

This is IMO plausibel and very likely to happen

1812 May, the war between Russia and the Osmannic Empire is ended by a peace treaty in Bukarest. Russia gains Bessarabia and parts of Moldova.
June, the War of 1812 between Britain and the USA.
Napoleon and La Grande Armee enters Russia.
September, after the battle of Borodino the Russian army retreats and Napoleon enters Moscow on the 14. that burns on the next day.
October, Battle of QueenstownHeights. Napoleon leaves Moscow on the 19.
November, Duke Christian August dies of a heart attack.

So you choose to just let him live two years longer? Why? OTL he probably had his heartattack because he had mixed feelings regarding his obligations to Denmark and his new realm, Sweden.

If you let him live initialy, I do not see why he dies now

King Frederick 6 is offered the position as successor to the Swedish throne and accepts. Even if some in

Sweden would have preferred Christian August’s brother Duke Frederick Christian. But with Napoleon on the run the prospect of uniting all of Scandinavia into one powerful Kingdom that will be able to stand up against Emperor, Tsar and Kings is too tempting and Frederick 6 then is the stronger candidate. King Frederick goes to Stockholm for formal acknowledgement by the Swedish Riksdag. Frederick furthermore breaks away from Napoleon and enters into coalition with Russia, Prussia and Britain. The Scandinavian Kingdoms are to field an army of 50000 in Northern Germany. Britain is going to subsidy the Swedish contingent of 30000. Frederick insists on Prince Friedrich of Hesse as commander and field marshall von Fersen is commander of the Swedish contingent.

Are you having Frederik VI changing sides? You better come up with a good explanation how and why he is able to do this as the Danish King. Im not convinced . Jutland would be occupied instantly when Nappy gets any hints about him changing sides.

IMHO it would be easier to have Frederik VI die, and have the Danes ask Christian August to take the Danish throne. He would have better background for getting Norwegian Swedish support for a change of sides. He would also be a fresh breath in the danish government.

[arctic warrior]

Originally Posted by Oddball

This is IMO plausibel and very likely to happen

So you choose to just let him live two years longer? Why? OTL he probably had his heartattack because he had mixed feelings regarding his obligations to Denmark and his new realm, Sweden.

If you let him live initialy, I do not see why he dies now

Are you having Frederik VI changing sides? You better come up with a good explanation how and why he is able to do this as the Danish King. Im not convinced . Jutland would be occupied instantly when Nappy gets any hints about him changing sides.

IMHO it would be easier to have Frederik VI die, and have the Danes ask Christian August to take the Danish throne. He would have better background for getting Norwegian Swedish support for a change of sides. He would also be a fresh breath in the danish government.

Thanks for your comments.
IMO Frederick wanted to enter the coalition in 1813. A change of the situation where he is able to keep Norway would make him go for it even if temporarily losing Jutland. Getting the Swedish throne is an unexpected opportunity.

Another possibility - Christian August dies as OTL, Frederick due to his alliance with France is chosen as the man that would bring back Finland to successor in Sweden. 1813 he joins the coalition and loses Jutland temporarily.

Your idea of having Frederick die is quite interesting.

[Oddball]

Originally Posted by arctic warrior

Thanks for your comments.
IMO Frederick wanted to enter the coalition in 1813. A change of the situation where he is able to keep Norway would make him go for it even if temporarily losing Jutland. Getting the Swedish throne is an unexpected opportunity.

So you are aware of the importance of Norway to the Danish back then

Okay, Ill admit that this was the answer I was looking for...

But dont forgettthat this implies a temporal loss of Jutland

Another possibility - Christian August dies as OTL, Frederick due to his alliance with France is chosen as the man that would bring back Finland to successor in Sweden. 1813 he joins the coalition and loses Jutland temporarily.

Just keep in mind that after the loss of Finland in 1809, the Swedes OTL never realy aspired to regain Finland (except some fuzz during the Crimean war). They correctly realised that the geopolitical situation had changed, and went after Norway instead...

[arctic warrior]

Originally Posted by Oddball

So you are aware of the importance of Norway to the Danish back then

Okay, Ill admit that this was the answer I was looking for...

But dont forgettthat this implies a temporal loss of Jutland

Just keep in mind that after the loss of Finland in 1809, the Swedes OTL never realy aspired to regain Finland (except some fuzz during the Crimean war). They correctly realised that the geopolitical situation had changed, and went after Norway instead...

Actually I'm very much aware of the importance of Norway to Denmark at the time and have been so all the way. THAT is important for my TL.

I think Frederick would fight for Jutland - he was ready to do so in 1807 and Danish forces had clashed with the French in Holstein 1806, the French pursuing Prussian troops into Danish territory. A common misconception is that Denmark was afraid to fight in those days. The Danish-Norwegian navy took on the RN during the Napoleonic wars pre- and after 1807! The loss of Jutland would be seen as temporary until it could be rejoined with the rest of the Kingdom.

I just see the aspirations of regaining Finland as a teaser among some Swedes as to why go for Frederick. Of course he is in no way going to do such.

If as you say Christian August worried so much of his position, then he'd die anyway and then I'd let Frederick go for successor to the Swedish throne 1810 AND change sides 1813.