Rep. of Texas

First post, but I'm a bit of an AH fan and I got a notion in my head about a Republic of Texas remaining independent. Easier said than done I'd think. But then searching through the forums, I found this topic: https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=64576
In case your lazy and don't feel like clicking the link, (I put it there to give credit to the original poster of the idea), it's about Otto von Bismarck coming to the US of A. The neg. feedback on the idea is that by becoming President of the US, he isn't free to move around like he was in Germany. So here's the admittedly basic timeline running around in my head.

1. My POD is that there's some kind of event that leads to the Bismarcks heading to America, possibly while Otto is in the womb, but it could also be after he was born.
2. Otto decides to become a military officer and enrolls at the USMA at West Point but after two years, decides to leave and go to Texas to serve in their war for independence. (He'd be 19, and thus, in his sophomore year at WP, in 1835 when war breaks out. Alternatively, he could wait until 1836 to set up in the newly independent Republic, but that gets messy.)
3. Due to his WP training and the need for an officer corps, Bismarck is commissioned a Lt. Col of the Texan Army and serves as the adjutant for Gen. Houston, becoming a war hero in the process.
4. Being a war hero, Bismarck becomes a member of the Texan Congress, where his statemen ability truly shines. He convinces the Republic that the best way to be accepted into the Union is to improve itself by developing a better economy, creating a military academy to create an officer corps that results in a powerful militia, and creating a stable government. In reality, Bismarck hopes that Texas will become its own nation but he feels this rhetoric is the best way to achieve his nationalistic goals.
5. Outraged by Mexican attacks on San Antonio, Bismarck drafts a declaration of war in the Texan Congress. He also drafts a bill that would create a military draft and require service from males aged 17-35. Highlights of debate include an impassioned Bismarck stating that he will resign his seat in Congress to serve as commander of the forces. Both pass through Congress unanimously.
6. Bismarck is successful against all odds (possible US military aid) and becomes even more wildly popular. Uses the new nationalistic urges to become part of Congress again and helps to defeat a resolution asking the United States to annex Texas. Essentially, he becomes the Henry Clay of the Texan Congress, becoming the most powerful man politically in all of the Republic. I see him becoming Sec. of State (considering he's always been the man behind the man, serving as Chancellor) or President, right around the time of the American Civil War.

Note 1. People who are on a certain side of the fence in nature v. nuture won't be happy I suppose, but basing a story on Otto Bismarck coming to the US/Texas and not acting like Otto Bismarck in OTL just doesn't make sense. Might as well just call him John Doe and write a story that way.
Note 2. Germany will still be united, b/c IMHO, it would happen anyway. Just in case anyone was curious.

So what I want to know, I guess, is
a) is this something that people would be interested in seeing develop
b) is it plausible
c) any suggestions?

And again, if you're wondering, I'd think that Texas would still be a slaveholding republic, and that Bismarck would avoid allying with the CSA, predicting that it would lose regardless of Texan help. (Considering he's quoted about the next war in Europe after him being caused by the Balkans, I'm giving him foresight as a quality).
Main changes this would cause is that it would halt American progress west (and could even lead to a Texan-American war) as eventually, I'd see Texas adding California, New Mexico, Arizona, and Colorado at the very least, seeing as Mexico would have to go through Texas to stop that from happening. Also, it would stop the Mexico-American war as that was fought over a) America annexing Texas and b) America wanting to add the Western territories, neither of which would happen in this TL.
I figure by giving Bismarck plenty of "unclaimed" land and people who would see themselves as different from America (the Spanish speaking Tejanos), he could continue to be a nationalist for what I imagine would be a bilingual republic. Thus, the problem brought up in the Bismarck an American thread is solved, and I get a Rep. of Texas.
 
I hate double posting but...

To let everyone know I'm not completely off my rocker, I realize that not everything I posted is a 100% agreeable with actual history with the main one being that Bismarck becomes a Congressperson before the age of 25. So if I choose to write anything about this, it will be better research. Glad to see 17 people looked at my topic at time of this writing, just wish there was feedback (even "your idea is poo")
 
Your idea is poo. Just kidding, but you have to admit that was a heck of an opening.

Frankly if you just want an independent Republic of Texas have the United Kingdom care more about the North American continent. If they do the natural move to check the United States is an client state Texas, a Mexican or independent California, and a Canadian Oregon.

Bismarck really isn't needed, and although I believe in both nature and nurture I have to think that Bismarck the Texan would not be the same Bismarck as the German one.

'Course it's your timeline, and if you want Bismarck go for Bismarck :)
 
I had an idea where Texas became a client state of the UK along with California, and a Canadian Oregon, so I agree with you on that, Electric Monk.

I don't know what would have happened if Bismarck had been Texan, so why not?
 
Yeah, I figured either Mexican attacks or the traditional foreign power takes interest would be the most likely way of there being a Rep. of Texas. As much as I love the quote about the Russians in Texas from Twilight 2000, I don't want to go that route, and I guess it's the American in me (or maybe the Irish:confused::D) that have me deeply opposed to a British client state, although it would have to be somebody's client state for awhile to survive.

As for the Bismarck idea, as I said, I stole it from the earlier post, and I guess that seeing as I'm an Alternate Generals, "wi the South had had Patton" type of guy, the WI the Texans had _____________ storyline appealed more.

But along the same lines, any suggestions for alternate PODs where the Texans get a famous historical leader?

And EM, yeah, I don't think they'd be the same if there was an actual timeline where this occured, but as I said, it's sort of boring to just make a random guy with Bismarck's qualities. If I were to do this, I'd be more interested in what if the Texans had Bismarck (or other historical leader) rather than what if the Texans had someone like Bismarck. But thanks all for the comments.
 
I don't know about a very young Bismark being able to keep Texas independent. Most of the settlers in Texas were Americans (I know there were large numbers of Spanish-speaking natives and Native Americans, but they don't have the political power of the Americans) who desired annexation by the US. There was also the problem of paying for an independent government. Wasn't Texas broke by the mid 1840's?

Finally, there is the problem of Mexico itself. Sooner or later it could (and very likely would) get its act together and find the leadership to overwhelm the much smaller independent Texas. Even Santa Anna in 1846 has the troops available to defeat Texas. I doubt Bismark could get a general draft of all Texans to work in the first place. If it did, it would be little better than militia and would have severe problems fighting a professional Mexican army. If nothing else, such a war would further bankraupt Texas and drive it into the US.
 
The bulk of northern European immgration (Germans, Scandanavians) to America settled in the upper-mid-west... I know you want a republic of Texas, but how about a Republic of Minnesota? enh? enh?
 
While there was a significant German settlement of Texas, centered around the area surrounding New Braunfels, I doubt the likes of Bismarck - or more correctly his parents - would make move so radical as to emigrate there. Its the growing up in Prussia and his experiences there that made him. Thats the problem with this sort of WI. The individual is removed from the environment that formed him.

My own suggestion would be to look at the Germans that originally settled and work from some other historical individual.
 
People who are on a certain side of the fence in nature v. nuture won't be happy I suppose, but basing a story on Otto Bismarck coming to the US/Texas and not acting like Otto Bismarck in OTL just doesn't make sense.


Alslammerz,

You're right. You're ideas about Bismarck being the same despite a vastly different upbringing and environment don't make sense at all. It's ASB, pure and simple.

Even after giving you a mulligan about the Environment portion of Enivironment & Heredity, you're also using the Cartoon Bismarck and not the Real Bismarck. Pick up an actual biography of the man and read about what he was really like.

Would your Cartoon Bismarck abandon diplomatic postings not once but twice so that he could follow an attractive Englishwoman to various vacation spots? The Real Bismarck did just that.

Would your Cartoon Bismarck be a poor horseman? Or suffer from several nervous breakdowns? Or be described by his own children as his sensitive, cultured, cosmopolitian mother's son masquerading as his bluff, pig-headed Junker father? Or threaten to resign from King, and later Kaiser, William's government almost monthly on the strength of percieved slights? Or dote on his son Bill and promote him well past his abilities? Or count as his best friend a relatively obscure American historian specializing in Holland?

The Real Bismarck was all those things and more.

Might as well just call him John Doe and write a story that way.

You actually should write it that way. The TL would be far more plausible as a result.

c) any suggestions?

There are several TLs featuring an independent Texas in the archives. Nearly all have far more plausible PODs than the ASB-ish presence of your Cartoon Bismarck.


Bill
 
Alslammerz,

You're right. You're ideas about Bismarck being the same despite a vastly different upbringing and environment don't make sense at all. It's ASB, pure and simple.

Even after giving you a mulligan about the Environment portion of Enivironment & Heredity, you're also using the Cartoon Bismarck and not the Real Bismarck. Pick up an actual biography of the man and read about what he was really like.

Would your Cartoon Bismarck abandon diplomatic postings not once but twice so that he could follow an attractive Englishwoman to various vacation spots? The Real Bismarck did just that.

Would your Cartoon Bismarck be a poor horseman? Or suffer from several nervous breakdowns? Or be described by his own children as his sensitive, cultured, cosmopolitian mother's son masquerading as his bluff, pig-headed Junker father? Or threaten to resign from King, and later Kaiser, William's government almost monthly on the strength of percieved slights? Or dote on his son Bill and promote him well past his abilities? Or count as his best friend a relatively obscure American historian specializing in Holland?

The Real Bismarck was all those things and more.



You actually should write it that way. The TL would be far more plausible as a result.



There are several TLs featuring an independent Texas in the archives. Nearly all have far more plausible PODs than the ASB-ish presence of your Cartoon Bismarck.


Bill

Isn't that a bit much? The guy has four posts...would you like to have been treated this way the first time you came onto the forum? I think the answer is no, so lay off the stupid cognomens and criticize constructively, or not at all.
 
...would you like to have been treated this way the first time you came onto the forum?


Fenkmaster,

I was, but that's besides the point.

This forum isn't kindergarten or the Special Olympics and you don't get a trophy for merely showing up. When something is wrong or bad it is wrong or bad whether it's your 4th post or your 4000th post.

... so lay off the stupid cognomens and criticize constructively, or not at all.

I admit should have used the word 'mythical' instead of 'cartoon'(1) but my criticism is still constructive.

The OP admitted at the beginning that he was purposely ignoring the nuturing and/or environmental inputs into the development of the human psyche so that he could introduce Otto Bismarck into his Independent Texas timeline. Despite that deliberately ASB-ish premise, he then introduced the mythical Bismarck and not the actual Bismarck.

Why go to all the bother of ignoring nuture/environment so that you can introduce a specific individual, tell us you're ignoring those factors for that reason, and then not introduce that specific individual? So you impose an implausible condition in order to introduce a certain individual but then don't that certain individual at all? What's the point then?


Bill

1 - As the time had expired, I was unable to make that change to my original post.
 
Whoa, hold it. Real Bismarck? You mean he isn't the guy from the Flashman series. Read something new everyday.

My "real" Bismarck would try and limit the growing power of the Catholic Church in this TL's Rep. of Texas. Sound familiar to anything real OTL?

As far as being a good horseman, I guess that if he was, it was because of some form of political turmoil causing his family to flee Prussia sometime after he was conceived, and thus, living in Texas/the US all of his life, not because the mythic Bismarck is a good horseman. BTW, where'd I mention that particular characteristic of him.

And while this Bismarck wouldn't resign from the Kaiser's service, b/c a Kaiser in Texas is completely ASB, he would certainly be willing to threaten to resign from important positions if Congress/President don't listen to him. Oh, and if that's not enough, he's a freaking Texan in this time line. He'll probably not only threaten to resign, he'd challenge them to a duel if at all possible.

He wouldn't dote on his son Bill, as this is an ATL, which means said son wouldn't exist. Besides, Herbert was a much better statesmen.

And would the ATL Bismarck be "real" enough if he implemented social programs created in advance to ward off the beginnings of socialism/abolitionism.

As for Prinz, I'm sorry if this comes off strongly worded, because people doubting me having any historical knowledge has left me pretty agitated, but the point is that we never get to that point. The reason for the collapse of Texas is the expansionist policies of Mirabeau Lamar, but, if Bismarck, who in real life favored a cautious expansionist policy and a desire only for a unified nation toward the apex of his career, were to become a political force, Lamar might not make it to that point. Then Houston could continue his settle with the Indians belief and Texas would be in a lot less debt. Plus, during the Houston administration, annexation was taken off the table for a time after it was initially rejected (perhaps the rejection causing Bismarck to become pro-Texan) and it led to foreign relations with other nations. And since he'd be a young politician but barred from major positions by the Texan Constitution ( a real one, not a "mythical" one), he might get sent to foreign capitols to represent the RoT and end up gaining the same skills he developed serving in France and St. Petersburg OTL. Or, he might get sent to the US as the one to take annexation off the table (or on the table) and agree to go to push his own belief in non-annexation. Eventually, in the 60s and 70s, which in OTL was the height of Bismarck's power, he becomes the major player in the RoT and becomes President around the time of the Civil War. As for the draft, oops, my bad. Texas already had one in OTL that incorporated everyone age 17-50. So he'd implement that instead.

As to further explain, and maybe here I wasn't completely clear what I meant by his nature:
1. Bismarck, regardless of where he ends up, will be a great politician. Not to off the cuff considering that there are still to Bismarck's today in Germany, who, while not great politicians, are politicians, and thus it's easily a family thing.
2. Bismarck will be willing to change sides on a political issue if it gains him more power. With the Left against the Cathloc Center, then with the Center after the Left abandoned him on the tariff issue, etc. ATL implications? Anti-abolitionist, pro-abolitionist, pro-annexation, anti-annexation, pro-exansion, anti-expansion, etc.
3. Bismarck will possess good foresight. He predicted the Balkans war 20 yrs. before the matter, he may well be able to predict the Civil War and its implications for Texas twenty years earlier.

ATL Possible Changes: Better military skills, due to West Point/militia service/being on the American continent, rather than relying on the military genius of Prussia. Or, maybe he just relies on the wars of Rusk and Houston to gain him popularity.
Maybe not as much on the Aristocratic side of life.
It certainly could end up explaing why the hell there's a Bismarck, ND.

ATL Quotes: "The great questions of the day will not be settled by means of speeches and majority decisions ... but by iron and blood." Referring to Congress battles over independence.
"I must protest that I would never seek foreign conflicts just to get over domestic difficulties; that would be frivolous. I was speaking of conflicts that we could not avoid, even though we do not seek them." Referring to the fact that Texas will not invade Mexico for the hell of it.
"A conquering army on the border will not be stopped by eloquence." Referring to the reasons to use force when Santa Anna tries to raid San Antonio.
"We Texans fear God, but nothing else in the world; and already that godliness is it, which let us love and foster peace."
"God has a special providence for fools, drunks, and the United States of America."- After a Union Civil War win?

"Real" enough for you.

Hell, maybe judging by Bill's comments, I'll even have him speak English instead of German. :rolleyes: I'm not bringing him over here hook line and sinker. It's not ASB that get him to America and it's the characteristics I derived from history that are taken, not the mythic crap, or everything about him. Of course, another POD is possible in this story. If Bismarck grew up in Germany until the 30s and then was kicked out through some means, and decides to take refuge with the Germans in Texas... That's messier though.
 
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Scots were perfect for Texas. Natural born cattle thieves. I'd love some sort of Scottish shenanigans here. Maybe land in Texas on accident, from thier Darien adventure
 
Perhaps you should consider a Texan Bismark-analogue, rather than just shifting Bismark-proper to Texas.

Another thing that comes to mind, but is much more in the line of AH fiction - tho thats exactly what we do - are like the short stories found in Alternate Outlaws. I particularly remember one story featuring Al Einstein, Ma Theresa and Al Schweizer as outlaws in the American Old West. There it was strictly historical characters in an out of character fictional work.
 
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