Julian the Apostate Lives Longer

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julian_the_Apostate

What if Julian the Apostate had lived longer?

I've been reading Gibbon and there are references to some persecution of Christians conducted by ministers appointed by Julian, but not by Julian himself (overzealous henchmen).

However, Julian appears to have been more and more frustrated with the instrasingence (sp?) of the Christian community--for example, some Christians wrecked some pagan temples, were burnt at the stake, and were considered martyrs. Gibbon indicates that he thought Julian might have been more direct after his return from the Persian war and that in turn could have provoked a civil war.

Thoughts?

MerryPrankster said:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julian_the_Apostate

What if Julian the Apostate had lived longer?

I've been reading Gibbon and there are references to some persecution of Christians conducted by ministers appointed by Julian, but not by Julian himself (overzealous henchmen).

However, Julian appears to have been more and more frustrated with the instrasingence (sp?) of the Christian community--for example, some Christians wrecked some pagan temples, were burnt at the stake, and were considered martyrs. Gibbon indicates that he thought Julian might have been more direct after his return from the Persian war and that in turn could have provoked a civil war.

Thoughts?

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Hmm... perhaps I should get back to that 1/3-written novel which has that exact premise...

Midgard said:

Hmm... perhaps I should get back to that 1/3-written novel which has that exact premise...

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You should. I rather liked it.

Have you ever read Gore Vidal's Julian?

If Julian lived longer this means that his expedition against Persia was a succes, so he has put a friend in the throne of Persian (in OTL Mauricius succeed in the same way when he helped the Persian king to recover his throne).

With peace in the East and the politic and military skills of Julian it seems highly improbable some kind of disastrous defeat against barbarians while he lives (and he could lives a lot when he died he was 32-33 years old) so not Adrianopolis defeat against the visigoths, we could expect that the Limes defenses and state of the army would be far better with Julian that with the other emperors including Teodosius.

Respect to the revival of the Roman old religion, Julian made clear his tolerance to all religions although he clearly despised the christianism, in any case although it is difficult to make possible a clear retrocession of the christianism, the possible revival of the old roman religion is could be more probable that it seems with the help of Julian (in fact in OTL after the death of Julian had a last attempt to make paganism the principal religion of the Rome, in this case under Eugenius in the Western Roman Empire in 392-394 until his defeat against Theodosius, so the old roman religion continued having acceptance between the dominant roman classes even 30 years after the death of Julian, it could be possible so an authentic revival of the paganism).

The V century could have different ways, 1. more pagan rome in which the tolerance is now persecution against christians and tolerance to other religions, 2. tolerant rome in which the successors of Julian play with astuce to use divisions of christianism (from arianism to Donatism) to undermine its importance. 3. A rome divided between a succesful pagan revival in Western part of the Empire and the Eastern being a clear christian redoubt, this could be a disaster if some kind of civil war is launched between a rebel Emperor with capital at Alexandria and the Emperor of Rome, combined withe the barbarian invasions, we only could expect that the Julian military reforms will the sufficient strong to permit survive the Empire or Empires against the barbarians and the civil war.

Sooner or later Julian would end up dead...
His armies were mostly Christians and some of his soldiers dared to defy him... (see St. Artemius martyrdom)
He would return victorius by his Sassanid campaign but he would soon be victim to a conspiracy by his christian Generals...

I would not so sure about this sure death of Julian, in 392-94 Eugenius restored paganism in Western Empire and was capable of form an strong army, there was not massive dessertions or plots against him, in fact he was overtrown by the external action of Teodosius and this narrowly gained the battle because the weather conditions favoured him and not Eugenius.

This was in 394 so 30 years later after the death of Julian, by logic if Eugenius managed to maintain the loyalty of his legions, Julian that was better commander and has fas best military prestige that Eugenius had been capable of maintaining the loyalty of the most part of his commanders and soldiers.

In any case the post of Don Giorgio make me think about that although I don´t think that Julian had died victim of a military plot, could be some kind of military rebellion had been possible, surely in the East where christianism were more potent, a possible rebellion a lo Avitus Cassius could have been possible.

Don_Giorgio said:

Sooner or later Julian would end up dead...
His armies were mostly Christians and some of his soldiers dared to defy him... (see St. Artemius martyrdom)
He would return victorius by his Sassanid campaign but he would soon be victim to a conspiracy by his christian Generals...

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Never heard of that martyrdom--there were Christian soldiers who refused to salute him b/c he had pagan symbols in his battle standard, but I don't recall any of them being killed.

And according to Gibbon, most of Julian's armies were rather flexible religiously--they could, with good conscience (!), sacrifice to the old gods with a pagan emperor and attend church with a Christian one.

St Artemius was a high ranking soldier in Antioch...
When he refused to salute the Emperor and adressed him against his so called false gods Julian ordered to be deposed and blinded....
When Artemius survived this torture and continued to insult Julian he ordered his tongue to be cut... When Artemius kept talking even with his tongue cut he ordered that he was to be beheaded....
Many other officers and soldiers were killed that way....

Don_Giorgio said:

St Artemius was a high ranking soldier in Antioch...
When he refused to salute the Emperor and adressed him against his so called false gods Julian ordered to be deposed and blinded....
When Artemius survived this torture and continued to insult Julian he ordered his tongue to be cut... When Artemius kept talking even with his tongue cut he ordered that he was to be beheaded....
Many other officers and soldiers were killed that way....

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Sounds like a Legenda Aurea tale... FWIW, Artemios of Antioch is recorded as having been executed for illegal destruction of temples and/or maladministration. Even the New Catholic Dictionary says

Converted to the Catholic faith after the death of Constantius, he was accused by heathens of destroying idols, was conducted to Antioch, and after many tortures put to death.

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http://www.catholic-forum.com/saints/ncd00794.htm

Looks like a political case here.

Well the whole theme is taken in my own "What if Rome..." timeline, even if currently I haven't got there in the english version of the text. In the french version I went up to his death, in 380 : with a more stable eastern border due to conquest by Probus in 283 Julien does not need to go in person to command the more christian eastern armies and stays in the more pagan western empire, leading his legions in Germany and north of Dacia. Thanks to his longer reign he can put long term reforms in place and lessen the impact of christianism as well as create the structured pagan clergy he wanted and thus further diminish the power of the church.

cf. https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=63651

Actually most of the Roman soldiers were followers of Mithras, who was viewed as much more of a Military God.

If Julian had lived you would have seen/required

• Success in Persia (agree with past reply that He would have set up friendly Persian emperor – so peace in the East for 20 – 40 years)
• Total land – tax – revenue gains in the East like Julian had done in the West (his reforms had created a more fair distribution of tax burden and a net gain in revenue for the empire). This would have left the empire in a better financial situation and a more general happy populace.
  • Downside is would the nobles / rich have killed him? Or his prestige in the Persian wars would have left him untouchable?
• Utilizing the peace in the East, better revenue, general populace happiness, prestige from the military, general filling of him being legitimate ruler, he could have brought a rebirth of the empire.
• Possible best case situation is 4 -5 years of rebuilding the army and getting more native troops involved (which is what happened in the East in real world), reduce the German influence, attack the German tribes and stabilize the empire on the Elbe. Which would have shortened the border by 45%?
• Better administration would have incorporated the Goths into the Army as individuals vs. in mass. The Goths would not have been victimized and rebelled as they did in real world.
• With shorter borders, no loss or Army at Arenapole, additional Goth soldiers not incorporated as Federates and an increasing revenue stream would Rome have been in better situations vs. the Huns. If they could have held the Huns at bay or defeated them earlier in there history then they did in real world they would never had had the disruption of the Alan’s – Vandals capturing Spain and Africa, or the emergence of a Visigoth empire in Gaul

Was Julian interested in conquering Germania to the Elbe?

Ah...possible best case, not definite. Never mind.

At this time, the Romans were lucky if they could keep the Germanics out, let alone go and conquer their country. Besides, Persia is richer.

Well at this time the Germans are still kept in check anytime an active commander is on the Rhine and stays there ( not taking his army to Italy in order to overthrow the Emperor ). Julien was one such commander until his armies made him emperor and he led successful operations deep inside the german territory, including in the very difficult terrain of southern Holland which at the time had been flooded by a rise in the sea level and had become very hard to travel.

Also at this date the legion was still a powerfull unit as shown by the battle of Strasbourg even if it was not the early empire legion anymore.

Hmm, it is clear that with Peace in the East assured, Julian could concentrate his legions for operations in Germania, no doubt but I think that the different peoples presents in Germania in late IV century were more potents than the germans of times of Augustus and Tiberius, also I have the sensation that after the campaign in Persia, Julian would focus in administrative affairs, like assuring with all the possible measures that his vision of an empire where the religious tolerance is a reality and where the christianism is simplily another religion between others will be a reality when he dies, I think that he could make some kind of campaigns a lo Germanicus to show the power of Rome to the barbarians but without trying to conquer Germania: it would be too much costous and a too much deep attempt in Germany with the objective of conquer it would be more a menace for stability and the triumph of his reforms than any other thing.

If we were a bit later I would agree with you but the 4th century germans were not yet the organized peoples that invaded the Roman Empire and the effectiveness of Julian's counterstrike in Germany tells me he could have conquered Germany up to the Elbe for a reasonable cost. It would also have given him new lands where to install poor peoples and colonies and increased his revenue while also shortening his borders and giving him the massive resources of the sudetes mountains and the rich Czech plains, not speaking of the vast forests. Sure there would have been some guerrilla but the combination of loss of lives by the barbarians and settlers would have made those insurrections rather noneffectives especially once the romans would have built their roads. Also this conquest would have better protected northern Italy, something that would have been good too and would create a buffer zone for Gaul that would have been much more prosperous.

Julian clashed with some high ranking Bishops of the church...
Eventually he would end up dead (as he did in Persia tradition says that the spear that killed him was thrown to him by a christian soldier...)
In my ATL Julian survives the Sassanid campaign and leads his army to Egypt for rest... But a fierce clash with the Patriarch of Alexandria leads to a mob uprising and civil unrest to a mostly christian city...
Julian leads the army to supress the rebellion but ends up dead after an assasination attempt by christian priests and christian Generals of the army...

Don giorgio, although this is a possibility (that Julian could die by a plot) is only a possibility, there is another possibilites Julian could succeed in his plans and die of natural death after a long reign (if Eugenius almost succeed in his efforts 30 years after that Julian, Julian could have succeed also), so more that "eventually" I better say that "it is possible".

If Julian lived a reasonable life not cut short by death from warfare, assassination, disease etc then he would very likely still be emperor in ~375-378 when the advance of the Huns force the Goths into the empire. How would he respond to this. I could see a number of options:

a) He might try for the historical version of allowing them settlement, but hopefully without the corruption of the Roman officials that drove them to revolt. If it did however I suspect an army under Julian would be able to handle them so no Adrianople.

b) Possibly if suitably matured in his political skills he might decide on a forward defence. Possibly supplying Roman forces to help the Goths, at least the Visigoths in what was then ~Rumania defend themselves against the Huns and establishing it as a buffer region.

c) On the darker side, if still much religious tension and a strong Christian presence in the region you might see some form of rebellion or treachery by local Christian elements complicating the situation.

It would also depend on what was going on elsewhere in the empire and further east. Has Julian successfully reformed the government system to reduce the corruption and tax levels? Possibly done something to prompt economic regeneration. Has he established a successor? Is there a reformed army with renewed discipline and what is the loyalty of the various commanders and troops? What is the situation in Persia? I doubt he could actually conquer it as planned, or establish a Shah under his influence so there would probably have been conflict in the east.

Steve

DG,

Just because tradition says something doesn't make it true.

I don't think anyone knows who killed Julian--he was in the thick of fighting without armor. It might have been a random Persian, it might have been a Christian soldier with a religious axe to grind, it might have been some pagan legionary he'd had flogged who was mad, or even an accident.