Logical Middle East Borders

What would the effect have been on the rest of the Twentith Century and the start the 21st had the leaders of France and Britian listed to men like T. E. Lawrence "Of Arabia" whom knew the region when they divided it up between themselfs? Lawrence's inital plan was unpopular but what if a compromise, that would be better then the OTL borders was made? How would it have effected our time if the hot spot of the Middle East was much calmer?
 

ninebucks

Banned
Is that the fabled Lawrence plan for post-Ottoman Arabia? It looks a bit... crappy.

From the looks of it most of Arabia seems to be run by dynastic states. But dynasticism collapsed for a reason, its not a good way to co-ordinate any large society in the modern age.

Also, what's with the second Armenia?

Also, what's with finding the most ethno-religiously diverse sector of the old Caliphate and simply sticking it in a blue box labelled 'French'.

Needless to say, I am far from impressed.
 
Much worse. Lawrence was a romantic blowhard, not a real expert on the Mid East. Look at his Armenia in Cilicia - that would have entailed the ethnic cleansing of a million Turks and in favor of a group that was a teeny fraction of the population.

A logical division of the Mid East would have been an Arab kingdom covering everything south of Turkey.
 
wouldn't that piss off the Druse, the Kurds, the assorted Lebanese groups, and several others?

Why? They weren't particularly pissed off under the Ottomans. And I didn't say "Arab Nationalist".

And actually, it would have been more logical to place Mosul under Turkey, as it was linked economically with Anatolia, not Mesopotamia.
 
Why? They weren't particularly pissed off under the Ottomans. And I didn't say "Arab Nationalist".

And actually, it would have been more logical to place Mosul under Turkey, as it was linked economically with Anatolia, not Mesopotamia.

not to mention its already considerable Turkish population.
 
A logical division of the Mid East would have been an Arab kingdom covering everything south of Turkey.
What about Palestine and Iraq, both of which Britain had interest in? Plus France will want at least some of the Levantine coast (a long standing ambition of theirs),
 

Xen

Banned
What about Palestine and Iraq, both of which Britain had interest in? Plus France will want at least some of the Levantine coast (a long standing ambition of theirs),


It would be like an Arab Persia so to speak. They would have considerable influence there, but not have it as part of their Empires.

The French probably would insist on getting their hands on Lebanon and Antioch, but aside from that they get nothing else, the Middle East might be in far better shape, especially if it is like a larger Jordan.
 

ninebucks

Banned
I don't think a single Arab Kingdom would be too great an idea. You do want at least some international rivalry in the Middle East, otherwise you raise the risk of creating an oil monopoliser. Besides, there's nothing wrong with a bit of divide and control.

Here's what I would propose if I was in Lawrence's position:
A secular, ethnically balanced Levantine Federation. With a definitive constitution that cements liberal democracy and respect for minority rights. An independent Kurdistan. A North and South Arabian Kingdom, so that too much power is not alligned with one state (the arbitrary border running (in what would be a straight line if i could draw them) from southwest to northeast separates Mecca from Medina, this is a deliberate attempt to encourage co-operation on faith issues amongst LF, NA and SA. Also featured is a United Gulf, to serve as a commerce hub and a rump Yemen.

mymideast.jpg
 
Might parts of Palestine become an autonomous homeland for Jews? After all, the whole Balfour thing's already gone through by now...
 
What about Palestine and Iraq, both of which Britain had interest in? Plus France will want at least some of the Levantine coast (a long standing ambition of theirs),

The challenge was "logical". What you're describing is merely OTL, which was not logical and led to the unending nightmare that is the Middle East. Creating Israel was a huge mistake - that should be obvious to everyone by now.
 
The challenge was "logical". What you're describing is merely OTL, which was not logical and led to the unending nightmare that is the Middle East. Creating Israel was a huge mistake - that should be obvious to everyone by now.
Still, there needed to be some settlement made with the Jews for the region, even if it wouldn't involve just letting them form a completely independent country surrounded by people who want them out and already occupied by people who have lived there for millenia.
 
Still, there needed to be some settlement made with the Jews for the region, even if it wouldn't involve just letting them form a completely independent country surrounded by people who want them out and already occupied by people who have lived there for millenia.

No, there didn't need to be a settlement with the Jews of the region. They comprised 5% of the population of Palestine at the close of WWI and had equal rights. I don't see why they merited more than that.
 

NapoleonXIV

Banned
As it's probably the oldest distinct cultural hearth in the world I think you have to have Iraq. Its also somewhat traditional that Mecca is controlled from either the Hejaz or the Arabian Peninsula, ("a garden surrounded by our spears") but not from Iraq. Otherwise it looks nice, I think the Levantine Fedaration is a good compromise mainly between the Arabs and the Jews, but also involving the large nos. of Christians and Gnostics in the area.

Yemen is also a fairly distinct region, known to the ancients as Arabia Felix, why are you giving half of it to Arabia Deserta when that's not its geography?

Also where's Oman, it has a fairly distinct history, though more recent, at one time controlling the African coast as far as Zanzibar IIRC

Best of all would be calling the whole thing Ottomania, letting everyone live there with each other in peace
 
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OK, who are you and what have you done with the real Abdul?

The real Abdul would recognize that the only proper and logical borders involve the entire region as part of the restored Ottoman Empire.
 
No, there didn't need to be a settlement with the Jews of the region. They comprised 5% of the population of Palestine at the close of WWI and had equal rights. I don't see why they merited more than that.
Yeah, but I was thinking there should be something like the (regretfully never really carried out) Feisal-Weizmann Agreement, where they agree to work together in Palestine.
 

ninebucks

Banned
The Kingdom of South Arabia isn't what you probably think it is. Riyadh in this Arabia remains nothing but a small desert town, the capital of KSA is actually Salalah, and as such, Omani and Yemeni cultures remain relatively dominant in the Kingdom. The King is elected by the noble families for life, the first king was an as-Saidi (an Omani), but the current king is a Saudi, and the expectation is that this will rotation will continue for as long as the Kingdom continues to exist. Given the history of Oman, the KSA is much more pro-Iranian than its northern neighbour.

And you've guessed the character of the Levantine Federation right aswell. There is a subclause in the Levantine constitution that states that "acknowledging that the Federation is the historic homeland of the Jewish race, the persecution of Jews by any governmental or private organisation is expressly prohibited, and that furthermore, the Levantine Federation shall do everything in its power to prevent anti-Semitism both domestically and abroad". In addition, one of the Federation's states is Israel (consisting of OTL Israel north of Jerusalem), Israel has special rights in that it is the only state in the Federation permitted to practice positive discrimination, and has special veto rights on the Federal level. Most Levantines acknowledge that due to the events of WWII, Israel's special rights are warranted. However, an Israeli Independence Party routinely scores around 15-20% of the vote in state and federal elections.
 
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