WI Jews stay in Spain?

Nicole

I don't wish to be stereotypical or anything, but Spain had some serious money management problems after the American gold came into their economy- now, again, not to be stereotypical, but um, well, might some of the not-expelled Jews find themselves in high-ranking positions of finance for His Most Catholic Majesty?
 

Leo Caesius

Banned
If the Jews and the Muslims are not expelled from Spain, this has serious ramifications for the development of the Barbary states (many of the Barbary pirates were actually Moriscos, particularly at Salé), and some effect upon the development of the Ottoman Empire. We might see a more prosperous Spain and a safer Mediterranean.
 

Tocomocho

Leo Caesius said:
If the Jews and the Muslims are not expelled from Spain, this has serious ramifications for the development of the Barbary states (many of the Barbary pirates were actually Moriscos, particularly at Salé), and some effect upon the development of the Ottoman Empire. We might see a more prosperous Spain and a safer Mediterranean.
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The Moroccan expedition to Mali should be also a big fail, without all those moorish mercenaries and their fire arms.
 

Smaug

I think it would definitely affect many facets of the economy, not just fanancial responsibility. The Jews were also prominent tradesman, with extended contacts throughout Europe. I could actually see tolerance for the Jews being turned into a huge wank for Spain.

Imagine a Spain that didn't get involved in every petty religious conflict, with a sick amount of cash, that might have been spent developing infrastructure at home and in the colonies.
 

Beowulf2005

I think you could get a decent TL out of the Spanish Jews fleeing to America. The Reconquista ended the same year as Columbus' expedition, after all.
 

carlton_bach

Keenir said:
they would flee from the Iberian Peninsula!

(they might not be getting the boot, but there was the Inquisition going on strong, remember)
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Well, it's not like they'd get much better elsewhere. This was the era when Europe as a body decided that if they had to have Jews, they were damned if they were going to have happy and wealthy Jews. And leaving would have meant leaving behind much property and local ties. Without the expulsion, they might well have stayed.
 

Tocomocho

Max Sinister said:
No Alhambra decrete won't suffice. Antisemitism existed earlier - the expulsion might only be delayed.
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The antisemitism only appeared in Castile after the assassination of Peter I in 1369. His successor and murder (Henry II) personally instigated the politics against jews because they were supporters of their half brother during the 1st Castilian Civil War.

So, a good POD could be the victory of Joan in the 2nd Castilian Civil War (1475-1479) thanks to massive Jewish support, instead the one of Isabella. The new government goes pro-jewish and there isn't any expulsion. In fact, without the <<luminary>> Isabella on the throne even the conquest of Granada, the Religion decrees of the early 1500s and the own establishment of the Inquisition can be butterflied.
 

Keenir

Banned
carlton_bach said:
Well, it's not like they'd get much better elsewhere. This was the era when Europe as a body decided that if they had to have Jews, they were damned if they were going to have happy and wealthy Jews.
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and they did....in the Ottoman Empire.
(and Poland)
 

Abdul Hadi Pasha

Banned
Leo Caesius said:
If the Jews and the Muslims are not expelled from Spain, this has serious ramifications for the development of the Barbary states (many of the Barbary pirates were actually Moriscos, particularly at Salé), and some effect upon the development of the Ottoman Empire. We might see a more prosperous Spain and a safer Mediterranean.
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It would have a fairly large impact on the Ottoman Empire. The large number of Jews that settled there as a result were very prevalent in economic life, particularly in the earlier periods, but continuing to the end of the empire.
 

Abdul Hadi Pasha

Banned
carlton_bach said:
Well, it's not like they'd get much better elsewhere. This was the era when Europe as a body decided that if they had to have Jews, they were damned if they were going to have happy and wealthy Jews. And leaving would have meant leaving behind much property and local ties. Without the expulsion, they might well have stayed.
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That's really not true at all. The Muslim world was just as close and contained large and old Jewish communities to which refugees from Spain could have led, and did in OTL. Salonika (now Greece) became a Jewish-majority city as a result of the expulsion and remained so until the Balkan Wars, and the community there was not finally destroyed until the Holocaust.

There is still a Jewish community in Istanbul dating from this period, although most have now left for Israel.
 

Smaug

Keenir said:
they would flee from the Iberian Peninsula!

(they might not be getting the boot, but there was the Inquisition going on strong, remember)
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I took it as that there might be some tolerance at a certain level. Granted that if the Inquisition continues, how could there be a said decree? A lil bit of tolerance on Spains part might have gone a long way.
 

Sovereign12

David bar Elias said:
As a butterfly, Spanish America and the Philippines could have substantial Jewish (and perhaps Muslim) populations as well.
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That could be very interesting.
Say a large portion decide to settle in Hispaniola. When gold is discovered in Mexico many move there, but a large portion remain. When, and if, a slave uprising occurs in this TL the jewish population could either support it or help repress it. If they support it, the island could become much more stable politaclly then OTL. If they help repress the uprising, they may be forced to flee to Mexico or maybe Florida, this could help stablize a future free Mexican government..
 
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