WI in 1588 Phillip II of Spain deposes Elizabeth I of England?

HelloLegend

Banned
Let's say Elizabeth I is deposed in 1588. The Spanish install Henry Percy on the English throne as Henry the 9th. Then Spanish manages to put down the Dutch Revolt the following year, and then in 1591, the Spanish depose Henry IV of France, and installs Charles du Mayenne, who becomes Charles XI?

With the complete dominance of the New World, gold and silver from Mexico and Peru are sent to Madrid. The Spanish use that money to purchase influence in the Italian and German municipalities. A few centuries later, they owned everything in Western, Central, and part of Eastern Europe

Where were you when the Spanish armies led by Viceroy Maximillian Jacinto invaded Moscow in 1805?
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Darkest

Banned
I can see England being taken by the Spanish. Improbable, but not implausible. Just need to make a few adjustments to the timeline. I don't want to go in to that.

Its 1589, and the Spanish take down the Dutch as well. Ooh... much harder. Only a YEAR after taking England? Think of all the money they are going to have to pour in to make sure England is theirs. Nevertheless, the Netherlands could still be kept. It's possible.

But France? The entirety of France? King Henry IV is going to declare the Edict of Nantes in 1588 or 1589, after Henry Percy takes the English throne, to stop the civil war and begin preparing against the Spanish. Its too important of an event to ignore. By 1591, the Spanish will still be trying to assert dominance over the people of England and the Netherlands. And they're going to try and take on France? No way!

There's a reason one empire or nation didn't come to dominate all the others. Once they get some power, other nations are going to notice, and start preparing against it.
 
A POD that surely would help a lot to get that the Armada could make a succesful invasion of England would be that instead of being commanded by Alonso Perez de Guzman, duke of Medinasidonia, that clearly showed his total incompetence in OTL (in defense of him but I have to indicate that the duke of Medinasidonia try to convince Philip II to not appoint him as commandant because he had not experience in commanding and in nautics matters and even indicating that he was propense to be seasick, but Philip II refuse to accept his protests so Philip II in reality is even more guilty than Medinasidonia in the defeat of the Armada) it had been commanded by Alvaro de Bazan, marquis of Santa Cruz, he was a very experienced sailor and good commandant intervening in Lepanto, in the invasion of Portugal and commanding the fleet that takes the Azores, last reduct of the loyals to the other candidate to Portugal throne, Don Antonio, he was the initial commandant of the Armada but unfortunately and suddenly dies in 1588 before the Armada begins his travel, born in 1520 he was 62 years old, but what if Alvaro de Bazan not dies in 1588 and survives could be 10 years more or five years more, surely had at least defeated the English fleet, bottled at Plymouth the english fleet was saved of the destruction because the incompetence of Medinasidonia that not profit the opportunity refusing the advises of veteran sailors as Juan Martinez de Recalde that indicated that the victory was sure if the Armad attacks the english fleet in Plymouth, Medinasidonia continue his way ignoring the english fleet in Plymouth...but if Alvaro de Bazan had not dead in 1588 the Armada commanded by him possibily one of the great admirals of the world in that time and with veteran captains as Oquendo or Recalde had destroyed the English fleet, the fate of the Armada had been very different respect to OTL.
 
The part of France could be achieved by a Guise victory in the French religious wars. With a Guise in the throne, France could be an ally and a help in defeating England and the Dutch.
 
I always thought the big problem with the Spanish government using New World gold to finance more infantry, was that the government never got much of the gold. It went to the grandees and merchants who financed the ships. In fact I did hear it cost the Spanish government more in warships to protect the flottas from pirates, than the Spanish government ever got in gold. Bit like the British in India. Lots of englishmen got rich, but the British government never saw much out of it. This is a problem that needs to be addressed.

I don't know of any evidence showing Medina-Sidonia to be incompetent. All his decisions were either tactically correct or in accordance with his orders. He did not bottle the British fleet in Plymouth, but by-passed them, because he had been ordered to rendezvous with Parma in the Netherlands by a due date.

The key point is the fire-ship attack on the Armada.This caused them to scatter in disorder, and the prevailing weather made it impossible for the situation to be retrieved. So the POD should be either the fire-ships do not attack, or are unsuccessful, or the weather changes, or all of these.
 
AFAIK Medina-Sidonia was against his appointment, pointing out that he had no experiences and got seasick. Philip II still appointed him.
 

Thande

Donor
I don't know of any evidence showing Medina-Sidonia to be incompetent. All his decisions were either tactically correct or in accordance with his orders. He did not bottle the British fleet in Plymouth, but by-passed them, because he had been ordered to rendezvous with Parma in the Netherlands by a due date.
Minor nitpick: the English fleet; there was no Britain then ;)
 
Many senior people decline appointments if they fear the project is going to be a disaster and they don't want to carry the can.

Medina-Sidonia may not have been a seaman but he would have had Sailing Masters to advise him. His tactical dispositions sailing up the Channel were sound, as was his decision to continue around Scotland in the circumstances. It was not his fault that Parma's army wasn't there when he got to Flanders.
 
Johny.

Alvaro de Bazan that yes was an experimented admiral and a very good seaman not considered the Armada as a possible disastrous project.

Also is a topic a lot of clear for spanish historic books and in vox populi for the readers of history that Medinasidonia not was a good appointment, he fears the appointment not because he believed that the project was a possible disaster, it was because clearly for him not was the adequate commander for the Armada because as I say:

-1. he has not have experience as commanding fleets, in fact he has no experience even commanding any kind of armies.

-2. His knowledge about nautical matters was effectively zero. For example he did not know which part of the ship is starboard and which larboard (no I am not exagerating, Medinasidonia admit himself not know what is starboard and what is larboard)

-3. He has a lot of seasick (if you say someone that the admiral that command your fleet have seasick, well I suppose he is not the kind of chief that a sailor would want commanding a fleet:rolleyes: )

-4. Because: a) no experience b)no knowledge of matter and c) he need to show that he was at the command he decided only to pursue orders and continue without profiting opportunities as in Plymouth against the advise of the Sailors Masters as Recalde and Oquendo (so in fact Sailors Masters advise him but he decide not to follow his advise simplily because he fears any possible risk even when it was clear that was not a risk), so in this case he observes the same attitude of an authomatic pilot in a civil aircraft: yes he pursues the orders and maintain the course but well a robot could be the same.

Why Philip II decides to appoint him?, well because Philip II was a man too much friend of his friends, Medinasidonia was a very good friend of him, a confident and also a grandee of Spain, Philip II apreciated a lot his friend and decides to show all that he was also a great leader (perfect, naturally Philip it is not the first person that makes this kind of decision even when his own friend pleads you that he is not he person adequate for the work, unfortunately little times this kind of appointment in high and technical positions only having in count the frienship is finally a good decision -a case of good decision was for example the appointment of Albert Speer, personal friend and architect o Hitler as minister of armament, was an strange but a very good decision, but this unfortunately is more an exception that the rule-).

Respect adopting the decision of make the route of Scotland, yes Medinasidonia makes the decision but the route was not decided for him, several choices with routes prepared was made by the Sailor Masters and veteran captain ships, some indicates route in direction Norway, others to Scotland, Medinasidonia only decides a or b but the routes and all the other dispositions was decided by the veterans of the Armada as Juan Martinez de Recalde.

Was Medinasidonia guilty?, I think that blame corresponds more to Philip II that appoints a man that was not prepared, absolutely not prepared for this kind of expeditions, it was as if Franklin Delano Roosevelt had appointed Nimitz as commander of the IIIrd Army, not worse as if FDR had appointed Wallace as commander of the Pacific fleet.

As say Wikipedia: "He was chosen even before Santa Cruz was actually dead, and was forced to go in spite of his piteous declarations that he had neither experience nor capacity, and was always sick at sea. His conduct of the Armada justified his plea. He was even accused of showing want of personal courage, and was completely broken by the sufferings of the campaign, which turned his hair grey. The duke retained his posts of admiral of the ocean and captain-general of Andalusia in spite of the contempt openly expressed for him by the whole nation." entire article here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alonso_de_Guzmán_El_Bueno,_7th_Duke_of_Medina_Sidonia

you will find that the most part of the history books, at least all that I have at home and I read says the same.

Guzman was an icompetent totally?, well not he was a very good administrator, in fact a superb administrator, but instead of having a true destine according to his skills, Philip put him commanding the fleet!!!:eek: (as I say Wallace was a good secretary of Agriculture and Nimitz a good admiral but if you puts both commanding land armies well, ehem, ehem they would seem totally incompetents)

Also Johny you are right there other factors: the storms, the presence of Drake, the problem mentioned by you of the Parma´s army, but unfortunately for Spain it is clear that with Alvaro de Bazan commanding the fleet the english fleet surely had been destroyed and all the other factors had been considered minors for stop this victory of the Armada.

And respect if the landings of an spanish army had been succesful if the Armada had suceeded in defeating the English fleet well in a very interesting article in Historia 16 number 140 article by Geoffrey Parker says for example (translated from castillian -spanish- of the article named "If the Invencible had landed..." in number 140 of Historic spanish magazine "Historia 16"):

"First of all, there was very little towns and castles in the southeast of England with capacity of supporting great cannon fire. The fortifications of the most part of the places in the Elizabethian England was very little adequated. According to an old ill-humoured soldier, the queen ministers believed that according with the opinion of the lacedemonians, fortificate the cities was more perjudicial than benefitious.
True is that Henry VIII of Ingland had shown great activity in improve the defenses of Kent with five fortress between the Downs and Rye and five more along Tamesis. But all these new defenses (as show a visit nowdays to the intact castles of Camber and Walmer) had been built with round walls of little thickness and with curved and hollow bastions. Only the squared and solid bastions, protected by wide ditchs, were apts to support bombings with great caliber cannons, and in the southeast only has this kind of bastions the castle of Upnor, built between 1559 and 1567 for the defense of the new shipyard of Chatham. Upnor by only himself was too much little to stop Farnesio and his army.
The towns of bigger size of Kent, Canterbury and Rochester, conserved only their old medieval walls, and the castle of Rochester, that dominated the principal way over the Medway, was in a painful situation. It seems that there was any fortification between Margate, the zone where was planned to land, and the Medway"

"Even in London, the Flandes army there was found little difficulties: the city was still defended by medieval walls. These had changed little since 1554, when Thomas Wyatt and his rebel army, without order and formation of any kind, marched through Kent, cross the Tamesis river in Kingston and entered unpunishedly by Westminster until come to Ludgate crossing Fleet Street. In military terms, London present too many less difficulties than Amberes, city defended by a walled precinct of 8 km of circumference and built according to the more elaborated designs. Even in the case of Amberes, the Flandes Army had captured the Amberes after a siege of a year, in 1585."

So Johnny Medinasidonia is clearly proved an incompetent in commanding a fleet but this not means that he was not competent in other matteries as for example in the administration, but as we know a good administrator not necessarily is a good leader, in this case it was a bad commandant according at least all the books that I have read (and in Spain there is a lot of articles and books about Philip II and the episode of the Armada)
 

Thande

Donor
Inhaki said:
-3. He has a lot of seasick (if you say someone that the admiral that command your fleet have seasick, well I suppose he is not the kind of chief that a sailor would want commanding a fleet )
Didn't stop Lord Nelson. ;)
 
Nelson had seasick?:D

Well another thing that one has taught today.

At least Nelson knew where is starboard and larboard;)
 

Thande

Donor
Nelson had seasick?:D

Well another thing that one has taught today.

At least Nelson knew where is starboard and larboard;)
Notorious for it. Wikipedia:

Nelson learned to sail on Barton Broad on the Norfolk Broads. He was briefly educated at Paston Grammar School, North Walsham, and Norwich School, and by the time he was twelve he had enrolled in the Royal Navy. His naval career began on 1 January 1771 when he reported to the third-rate Raisonnable as an ordinary seaman and coxswain. Nelson’s maternal uncle, Captain Maurice Suckling, commanded the vessel. Shortly after reporting aboard, Nelson was appointed a midshipman and began officer training. Ironically, Nelson found that he suffered from seasickness, a chronic complaint that dogged him for the rest of his life.
 
Interesting, thanks for the info:)

In exchange a little profiles about one of the great sailors of the Armada of 1588, a veteran and very competent man (and from basque origin also:D )

Don Juan Martinez de Recalde, was born in Bilbao. Gentleman of the dress of Santiago. Admiral General. -His superb skills of sailor covered from the art of building ships to the command of these-. Intervined in the building of ships of the king in Vizcaya, Guipuzcoa and Cuatro Villas. Escorted fleets to Indias. Commanded the fleet that transport the duke of Medinaceli to Flandes in 1572 and the fleet of 20 naos that had to reinforce to Don Alvaro de Baza in the Azores Islands in 1582. In 1583 had principal place in the reconnaisance and submission of the Islands, after this made a voyage to land 1000 soldiers in Ireland to help the catholics.
In the Invencible had rank of Admiral, showing great courage and dextirity.
Die in 1588 after returning to Spain with some ships after a very difficult travel around Ireland after the defeat of the Armada. A man of great courage but the great sickness of the penalities and tensions of the travel make him dies few time after his arrival.
 
I don't know enough about de Recalde and de Bazan, but I know you had to be a seriously senior grandee to command such a huge enterprise. Otherwise the other (more minor) grandees would refuse to obey your orders.

You can't blame M-S for acting "like a robot" when coming up Channel and not stopping to smash up the English fleet. His orders, and for that matter the objective of the whole operation, were perfectly clear.

They were to pick up Parma's army and land it in England. I am sure La Historia is right about Britain's land defenses. Britain did not (still does not) maintain a large army and there is every reason to suppose the Spanish knew this. Curiously, the Spanish Ambassador was quite intimate (in the nicest possible way) with Queen Elizabeth.

It was M-S's clear duty to get the Spanish Army, famously the best in the world at the time, to England, not muck about fighting the English fleet.

His tactical disposition coming up Channel, the famous "Crescent-shaped" formation, were correct, allowing quick reinforcement of the flanks. As for after Gravelines, he could have gone to Norway but what would he have done there? Would any German or Swedish ports provisioned his fleet? I doubt it - they were all protestant.
 
If I've got the right "Pavane" the POD was Queen Elizabeth being assassinated.

I don't think it was John Brunner who wrote it either. I can't for the life of me think of his name, but he was a 1960s advertising man, who tired of it all and ultimately moved to a commune somewhere. The big feature of this guy's books (I remember he wrote another rather exciting one about Earth being invaded by Killer alien wasps) is that he liked Hardy's Wessex and set most of his books around that part of the world, particularly the Swanage/Dorset area.

Interestingly, his take on the future AH society of Europe dominated by the Roman Catholic church, was a technologically backward society. Kingsley Amis, when he tackled the same thing, did not agree with this effect, although I think Kingsley was more interested in satirising Wilson's Britain than writing AH proper.
 

Keenir

Banned
Let's say Elizabeth I is deposed in 1588. The Spanish install Henry Percy on the English throne as Henry the 9th. Then Spanish manages to put down the Dutch Revolt the following year, and then in 1591, the Spanish depose Henry IV of France, and installs Charles du Mayenne, who becomes Charles XI?

With the complete dominance of the New World, gold and silver from Mexico and Peru are sent to Madrid. The Spanish use that money to purchase influence in the Italian and German municipalities. A few centuries later, they owned everything in Western, Central, and part of Eastern Europe

sounds like Shadow of Earth.
 
If I've got the right "Pavane" the POD was Queen Elizabeth being assassinated.

I don't think it was John Brunner who wrote it either. I can't for the life of me think of his name, but he was a 1960s advertising man, who tired of it all and ultimately moved to a commune somewhere. The big feature of this guy's books (I remember he wrote another rather exciting one about Earth being invaded by Killer alien wasps) is that he liked Hardy's Wessex and set most of his books around that part of the world, particularly the Swanage/Dorset area.

Keith Roberts [Keith John Kingston Roberts]

See:

http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/ea.cgi?Keith Roberts

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keith_Roberts
 
I have the book at home.

the author was Keith Roberts, I have also the other book that you mentions about the alien giant wasps was named at least in the castillian -spanish- translation "Las Furias" (The furies).

You are correct the POD was the murdering of Queen Elizabeth, this causes a reaction against the catholics that when these counterattacks effectively put England in a civil war that is profited by Philip II to send the Armada and conquer England.

Respect to Alvaro de Bazan was surely one of the greatest admirals of the Spain history, this is publicily acknown and you has a prove in the fact that the company that administrates the military Shipyards in Spain has the name of "Bazan Shipyards".

Respect to Medinasidonia is some strange althoug interesting and refreshing to try to defend or reivindicate the name of Medinasidonia because surely you will find that the most part of the historians, spanish or not and the public opinion between the spanish that read history is that Medinasidonia was not a competent man for command a fleet.

Respect to the correct tactical dispositions that you mentions, you has to remember as you say and I say that Medisadionia had the Sailors masters as you say to advise, so in fact this dispositions would be the dispositions of the sailors masters accepted by Medinasidonia (so the Crescent-shaped formation was not originated by the mind of Medinasidonia -as we know he did not knew where was starboard and larboard, so if he had doubts about this as you understand it is not very coherent think that he decided about Crescent-shaped formation, it was a tactical disposition advised by the veteran admirals as Recalde and Medinasidonia accepted this-).

In fact, yes Medinasidonia only obey the orders, yes and obey good but he was not the competent man to command the fleet (you know that the war is not only obey is also show initiative,experience, know all about your men and ships, flexibility, etc, things, respect to the fact that if he had not so competent the other grandes had acted in contra, first we are talking about Philip II, not Philip III or IV, these two kings were very influenced by valids and grandes of Spain, but Philip II was a man strong that although supported by secretaries and others was a very hard worker man that read a lot the reports and prefered to act directly, Medinasidonia was a great friend and confident and also a good administrator Philip makes an error appointing Medinasidonia, and the decisions of Philip II had to be accepted, he had a strong character and also in the Armad could have nobles,but he most high noble was Medinasidonia, the rest of the admirals and captains were good seaman and sailors but not high nobles as Medinasidonia, also was the orders of Philip II so the admirals and captains has no more obligation to obey this.

The fact that Medinasidonia was not competent for command is a true universally proved and accepted (in fact by the own Medinasidonia) because this I found your reivindication about Medinasidonia some strange.

But you has made a correct point if you are defending not his competence in sea matters but as a man, yes as I say was a very good administrator and surely more that blame him for commanding Armada we should blame Philip II.

I think that a better way to reivindicate the competence of Medinasidonia would be an ATL where Alvaro de Bazan not dies and command the Armada and in which Medinasidonia is appointed by Philip II in a mission according to his true skills, Philip II send Medinasidonia to Flandes to administrate the logistics and to prepare the occupation of England (in fact we could see him as a probable provisional governor for England) with their skills for administration these missions would have a great probability to be succesful.

So I am not saying that Medinasidonia was incompetent totally, only that he has no competent to command an armada (like putting VP Wallace commanding the Pacific Fleet)
 
A little note about my last post:

Could be some direct in the last post, but the Medinasidonia not competence in sea matters is universally accepted as I say.

But this not means John that you has not partial reason in reivindicating Medinasidonia, in this thread because this discussion I expect that we have known the fact that:

a) Medinasidonia was very competent in administration (in fact a superb administrator)

b) More than blaming in him , blame to Philip II.


So, I accept the competence of Medinasidonia... in administration:D
 
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