Welsh victory at the Battle of Heavenfield

Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Heavenfield

We've already done 'Northumbrians win at Hatfield Chase', preceding this, but what about the alternative? What if Cadwallon won at Heavenfield? Would it presage a Welsh resurgence in Britain?

In the short term, yes. Cadwallon seemed to have been bent on nothing short of the utter destruction of Northumbria (or Bernicia and Deira, if you like). Had he achieved this...and if he had won at Heavenfield, the possibility is there...it would have marked a major shift in the balance of power between the Britons and the invaders. For one thing it would have re-established contact between Wales and the Britons of the North.

But I don't think it would have been lasting. The nature of Welsh society being what it was, at best, Cadwallon would have divided his new territories among his sons, then their sons would have divided it among their sons, and you relatively quickly have a welter of small, squabbling Welsh kingdoms which will be easy pickings for resurgent Anglo-Saxons later. So the Welsh advantage might last a century, at most. But an even more likely scenario is even worse for the Welsh...Cadwallon is faced with treachery by other British kings who are jealous of his power during his own lifetime. He is assassinated, or defeated in battle, and the Anglo-Saxons (possibly under the banner of Mercia) come in and pick up the pieces. In that case, we are looking at a Welsh advantage which lasts a decade, or less.

The only way the Welsh could permanently have reversed the balance of power between them and the invaders was to fundamentally change their laws regarding distribution of land upon death of the landowner and stop subdividing their kingdoms among all the sons of a deceased king. This prevented the Welsh from permanently uniting for any length of time, and also meant that they spent most of their time warring with each other rather than against the invaders...both of which conditions meant that any gains they made against the invaders would be transitory.
 
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Thande

Donor
Even so, though, it would still radically change English history, minimising the subsequent importance of Northumbria and increasing the power of Mercia. One wonders how the Viking invasions would play out in this timeline.
 
Even so, though, it would still radically change English history, minimising the subsequent importance of Northumbria and increasing the power of Mercia. One wonders how the Viking invasions would play out in this timeline.

That is no doubt true. If Northumbria is destroyed, that radically alters the course of English history. Even such things as the account of history which would be passed down to us would be different...the Venerable Bede lived and worked in Northumbria, and probably doesn't survive to write if the kingdom is destroyed.

If Mercia picks up the pieces after Cadwallon's kingdom falls apart, we might eventually see England unified under the Kings of Mercia rather than the Kings of Wessex, which could be interesting. Or England never unifies at all, and we possibly see two strong Kingdoms...a Saxon kingdom unified under the banner of Wessex ("Seaxland"?), and an Angle Kingdom unified under the banner of Mercia ("England")...arise instead, both of which are unified and strong enough to withstand the Viking invasions.

The history of Scotland will be much different, with possibly much less English influence as the Lowlands might not become predominantly English. Possibly Gaelic remains the primary language throughout Scotland for a much longer period...maybe even to the present day.
 

Thande

Donor
That is no doubt true. If Northumbria is destroyed, that radically alters the course of English history. Even such things as the account of history which would be passed down to us would be different...the Venerable Bede lived and worked in Northumbria, and probably doesn't survive to write if the kingdom is destroyed.

If Mercia picks up the pieces after Cadwallon's kingdom falls apart, we might eventually see England unified under the Kings of Mercia rather than the Kings of Wessex, which could be interesting. Or England never unifies at all, and we possibly see two strong Kingdoms...a Saxon kingdom unified under the banner of Wessex ("Seaxland"?), and an Angle Kingdom unified under the banner of Mercia ("England")...arise instead, both of which are unified and strong enough to withstand the Viking invasions.

The history of Scotland will be much different, with possibly much less English influence as the Lowlands might not become predominantly English. Possibly Gaelic remains the primary language throughout Scotland for a much longer period...maybe even to the present day.
Maybe even the present county of Northumberland becomes part of Scotland, given that a lot of the present Scottish borders were formerly part of Northumbria in OTL. Possibly Scotland holds onto Cumbria, too.

I like your idea of two powerful English kingdoms which do not unite (at least in the way they did OTL). Perhaps even as distinct as modern England and Scotland.
 
Maybe even the present county of Northumberland becomes part of Scotland, given that a lot of the present Scottish borders were formerly part of Northumbria in OTL. Possibly Scotland holds onto Cumbria, too.

I like your idea of two powerful English kingdoms which do not unite (at least in the way they did OTL). Perhaps even as distinct as modern England and Scotland.

Here's a map of how something like that would look on the eve of the Viking invasions....

heavenfieldresultsmap.gif
 

Thande

Donor
I like that, though I think I'd have maybe added the Mersey basin to Wales...of course, one question is whether Strathclyde will survive in TTL...
 
I like that, though I think I'd have maybe added the Mersey basin to Wales...of course, one question is whether Strathclyde will survive in TTL...


As for whether Strathclyde would survive, probably not. Even though the kingdom is a bit larger and more powerful than in OTL at this period, I don't think it capable of withstanding the Vikings to a much greater degree than in OTL. So probably it gets destroyed in the 9th century and the Kingdom of Alba (the united kingdom of the Picts and Scots, which will form in the mid-9th century) and England will split the territory.
 
An important distinction needs to be made between the Viking raids which plagued all coastal regions starting in the late 8th century and the actual Viking invasions. The Great Heathen Army of Ivar the Boneless in 845 was the first major invasion of English territory. Quite possibly, that specific invasion would be butterflied away, but a full-scale Danish army landing somewhere in the mid-9th century is almost inevitable.
The Ragnarssons very neatly bumped off the Anglo-Saxon kingdoms one by one, starting with East Anglia, then advancing on stolen horses to Northumbria, which at the time was in the midst of civil war. As the richest and most powerful Anglo-Saxon kingdom, Northumbria was going to be the most appealing target.
To backtrack a little bit, I see Mercia moving into southern Northumbria and Strathclyde picking up the north. If Greater Mercia can avoid civil war and internal strife, they should have no trouble fighting off the Danes. Unfortunately, given the climate of the times, that's far from being a given.
If Mercia stays strong, the full fury of the Viking invasions will probably hit Strathclyde and the Saxon kingdoms instead.
The Saxon kingdoms will either be absorbed by Mercia, or, more interestingly, form a sort of British Normandy, perhaps even in union with Normandy in France.
If a Viking dynasty is seated in Strathclyde, a dynastic union with the Viking Lord of the Isles or the Jarls of Dublin or Man is possible too. I'd be intrigued to see a united Scotland and the North of England under a Norse dynasty.
Mercia may well wind up absorbing Wales as the OTL English did, as the Northern kingdom remains in the Scandinavian cultural and economic orbit and the Southern kingdom becomes associated with the Low Countries (as medieval southern England was)
 
A point to remember about the Ragnarssons is at least part of the reason for their attack was the fate of their father in Northumbria.

If no Northumbria, possibly no nasty death for their father and so always a possibility they don't come?
 
Very rough map, circa 1100.
The "Saxons" are a prosperous kingdom or duchy (perhaps several duchies of Devon, Wessex, Kent, and East Anglia), with dynastic and trade ties to Brittany, Normandy, and Flanders. Their economy is based largely on the wool trade.
The "Mercians" would have a considerable admixture of Welsh and Anglisc characteristics. They are relatively poor and probably considered savage and warlike by their neighbors, as a militaristic society would have to develop to keep "Mercia" independent. Quite possibly their northern border would be above what I've drawn. They may eventually become a military ally of the Saxons to protect them against the Northerners, and also quite possibly have some kind of connection with Dublinh and Man.
The Kingdom of the North is probably divided into jarldoms of the Western Isles, Shetland and Orkney, Cumbria, . Assuming few butterflies, it's likely that it's in personal union with the Danish king, making Denmark/Norway/Angland a not inconsiderable power.
Any thoughts so far?
 

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A point to remember about the Ragnarssons is at least part of the reason for their attack was the fate of their father in Northumbria.

If no Northumbria, possibly no nasty death for their father and so always a possibility they don't come?

I was going to mention the possible personal motive.
Even assuming the legend is true (and there is some debate), Northumbria was a very appealing target, as the most prosperous Anglo-Saxon kingdom and with its ongoing civil war. I think any Danish army, once established in Britain, whether in Strathclyde or East Anglia, is going to try to conquer Northumbria.
 
Interestin, so your 'Kingdom of the North' is part of a Cnut-like state?

With a POD in 633, it's a lot to assume, but it's pretty likely that there would be a union between the northern kingdom and either Denmark or Norway. Of course, coming before Harald Fairhair and Harald Bluetooth, it's also very possible that "Denmark" and "Norway" as such may never exist. OTL Scotland will take on a much more Norse flavor almost certainly, as Danish and Norwegian warlords will focus on it more, and during the dynastic struggles in the 10th-11th century, there will be more Scandinavian influence.
 
Just thinking-'Kingdom of the North' doesn't feel quite right (unless it's an inclusive name for the other bits elsewhere?)

I'd be tempted to go for 'Scotland' or 'Alba'
 
The map by imposter, whats the little green bit in wales?

Sloppy MSPaint skills

Just thinking-'Kingdom of the North' doesn't feel quite right (unless it's an inclusive name for the other bits elsewhere?)

I'd be tempted to go for 'Scotland' or 'Alba'

'Alba' is pretty good, since 'Albion' was a historic name for the whole island. I'm not sure what the Vikings called the British Isles as a whole, but they might apply that name, because the Kingdom of the North encompasses the majority of it.
 
'Alba' is pretty good, since 'Albion' was a historic name for the whole island. I'm not sure what the Vikings called the British Isles as a whole, but they might apply that name, because the Kingdom of the North encompasses the majority of it.

The few, admitedly late, period references I've seen say the Nordics refered to 'England', 'kingdom of the Scots', etc. They knew it was one island but there never seem to have referred to it in that way, simply they raided the lands of the English, etc
 
I don't really know any specifics. I suppose I could put together a TL of some sort. I've had this idea of an "inverse Britain" divided into a Northward-facing powerful state, with a smaller, Channel-facing Southern state for a while.
 
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