Isreal: WI

Here's something I've thought about. its after WWII, and Europes Jews a displaced and in DP Camps with nowhere to go, and they need a homeland to rebuild. So someone takes a look at the map at the ME. They say 'hmm well, we could put it smack dab between these Muslim countries, no big' but then, in a moment of foresight, decide, waitaminute, not so much a good idea, that after all there's British interests over there and whatnot, don't want to get them tangled up in that.

So casting about, for a suitable location, they decide, 'well, its not quite the Holy Land, but there sure is a lot of room, and Lo'! they decide to make Isreal, in southern or central Saskatchewan!

Yes, and odd choice to be sure, and I'm pretty sure that Canada might not be to pleased to all-of-a-sudden have a sovereign nation in the middle of the country. also might inflame Quebec, who may or may not resent these 'foreigners' getting their own country while remaining part of a 'British commonwealth'

Anyway, kinda random, possibly unplausible, but hey, what do I know anyway?

-Cheers
 
On a lot of related threads a lot of people make the point that many jews want to relocate to *the* holy land (as identified in the talmud etc) and that means a homeland elsewhere doesnt happen. You'd need to find a good motivator to encourage the surviving jews to relocate to canada
 

Gremlin

Banned
You'd have to arrange a POD that would place the holy land under a sovereign government pre WW2.

Perhaps Turkey stays out of WW1 or Transjordan is independent, basically any sovereign state is going to kindly rebuff the suggestion of taking in the Jews.
 
I've been toying with a scenario like this, based around Turkey and WWI. I was waiting to post, since I didn't want to look like I was mimicing David bar Elias' "Zionist Uganda" timeline. His timeline is just too good.

I've been fascinated with the idea of Israel located outside the mideast ever since high school, when a teacher told my class that US ans UK thought of giving the area around Brownsville, Texas to the Holocaust survivors. I've never been able to find any information of this supposed theory though.
 

HueyLong

Banned
I've got to agree about the timeline- its much more of a wankfest than anything else. He took almsot the entire Jewish population, and made them Draka. Although, I will say this: it is well written, and raises some interesting scenarios.

But, Zionist settlements are possible outside of the Middle East, just not likely to get as many immigrants. A Jewish centered Uganda, maybe. But not an African Empire, and nothing on the level of OTL Israel.

While Zionism was technically secular, it used religious language, ideas and locations as the center of its nationalist ideology.
 
I didn't turn the Israelis into the Draka. If I had, the Israelis would have annexed the Congo, Ethiopia, Sudan, and Madagascar, and formed an unholy super-union with South Africa. That just didn't happen in that TL.
 

HueyLong

Banned
I liked your TL up to a point, but after that, I felt that it was a wankfest. You transplanted huge, implausible amounts of Jews to Uganda, and had them act as enlightened leaders and philanthropists, perfect to a point- even though nothing like that was spawned in OTL Israel, or anywhere else where natives met colonists for that matter.

Where was the hatred of Masai? Not simple exclsuion, but hatred. Where was the dislike of Jews across Africa, natural when they are an expanding force? Where were the problems likely to result from huge immigration, especially the more unskilled waves later on? You wanked Israel into becoming an African superstate. It was, and I'm sorry to say, a wankfest. Israel became mighty simply because it was ruled by Jews, and was flooded with implausible waves of immigrants? How is that not Draka or wank?

And, I apologize for getting off topic, and hope you don't take it the wrong way David.
 
I liked your TL up to a point, but after that, I felt that it was a wankfest. You transplanted huge, implausible amounts of Jews to Uganda, and had them act as enlightened leaders and philanthropists, perfect to a point- even though nothing like that was spawned in OTL Israel, or anywhere else where natives met colonists for that matter.

Where was the hatred of Masai? Not simple exclsuion, but hatred. Where was the dislike of Jews across Africa, natural when they are an expanding force? Where were the problems likely to result from huge immigration, especially the more unskilled waves later on? You wanked Israel into becoming an African superstate. It was, and I'm sorry to say, a wankfest. Israel became mighty simply because it was ruled by Jews, and was flooded with implausible waves of immigrants? How is that not Draka or wank?

And, I apologize for getting off topic, and hope you don't take it the wrong way David.

No offense taken, HL. That was my first attempt at a real TL, and I suppose it shows in some areas. Thanks for the critism. If I had a chance to redo the TL, I would try to incorporate those suggestions. Thanks.
 
I liked your TL up to a point, but after that, I felt that it was a wankfest. You transplanted huge, implausible amounts of Jews to Uganda, and had them act as enlightened leaders and philanthropists, perfect to a point- even though nothing like that was spawned in OTL Israel, or anywhere else where natives met colonists for that matter.

Where was the hatred of Masai? Not simple exclsuion, but hatred. Where was the dislike of Jews across Africa, natural when they are an expanding force? Where were the problems likely to result from huge immigration, especially the more unskilled waves later on? You wanked Israel into becoming an African superstate. It was, and I'm sorry to say, a wankfest. Israel became mighty simply because it was ruled by Jews, and was flooded with implausible waves of immigrants? How is that not Draka or wank?

And, I apologize for getting off topic, and hope you don't take it the wrong way David.

I cant see how david couldnt take it the wrong way. What you are saying verges on the border of anti-semetic.

You cant even imagine aworld where Jews couldnt get along with the Masai? What does that say about your opinion of Jews?

OTL Israel became mighty through successive waves of immigration, and the 1 million Israeli Arabs havent done so bad living there. (The highest standard of living for Arabs in the Middle East outside the gulf oil states, and the only arabs in the middle east who have a real functioning democracy)
 
I cant see how david couldnt take it the wrong way. What you are saying verges on the border of anti-semetic.

You cant even imagine aworld where Jews couldnt get along with the Masai? What does that say about your opinion of Jews?
Wow, the things that pass for antisemitism these days are really astounding.
 
Aside form being OT I feel as this is my thread im going to address this.
Firstly I mean't no disrespect to David, and actually his TL was decent, if also, IMO a bit unrealistic. However:

OTL Israel became mighty through successive waves of immigration, and the 1 million Israeli Arabs havent done so bad living there. (The highest standard of living for Arabs in the Middle East outside the gulf oil states, and the only arabs in the middle east who have a real functioning democracy)

Isreal became 'mighty' because it took land from its neighbours after it was invaded. thats a debate for another time, possibly even another forum. and Lets not forget the fact that Isreal also recieved/recieves the largest amount of U.S aid (funding, and military) out of most any country, IIRC.

I'll leave further thoughts out of this as I dont want to start a flamewar, but at least get your facts straight.

We now return you to your regular schedueled thread :D

P.S any other thoughts on the feasability of this? perhaps maybe the POD is indeed a bit too late, but maybe we can suspend disbelief a bit.
 

Ibn Warraq

Banned
I think it's completely unrealistic. The British didn't want an independent Jewish state in Palestine. Why would they allow one in Canada? I'd find it more realistic to believe that after WWII the allies would create an independent Jewish state in part of Germany and even that strikes me as being a stretch.
 
You are easily astonished. I'm not surprised at all, disappointed perhaps, but not surprised.
It was some kind of sarcastic statement. I'm living in Germany after all. The crap that the central countil of Jews in Germany puts out every month outclasses nearly everything posters on here can come up with. They even accused a minister of anti-semitism who (very specifically) condemned Israels' cluster bomb attacks.
 
Ibn,

because after WWII,Canada was only nominally under British rule. Now don't get me wrong, Canada was as much to blame as any other nation insofar as accepting refugees in the first place, and to be fair my WI is probably imbued with a bit more hindsight than OTL.

but thanks anyway for the criticisms. :)
 

HueyLong

Banned
I cant see how david couldnt take it the wrong way. What you are saying verges on the border of anti-semetic.

I fail to see how what I said was anti-Semitic. By not believing that Jews are supermen-philanthropists I'm an anti-Semite? Its even a bit funny, considering my mostly positive opinion of OTL Israel.

I do not believe that any people would have had such a success in the region (The British and the natives certainly didn't, for example)- my opinion on that does not hinge on their race.

I do not believe that tensions are so quickly cast aside- they are not in human society. Arabs are still looked upon with distrust by many in Israel, and have been treated badly over the years. Without a common heritage or history of cooperation, I would expect the results to be even worse. I would expect the Jewish colonists in Uganda to be more harsh on the Massai, because the Massai would be more alien and more belligerent towards them than the Arabs were in OTL.

And, I doubt that Jewish traders, soldiers or explorers would be welcomed any more warmly by natives than other European explorers would. There is no reason for them to be.

But then again, this has veered far off-topic.
 
You'd have to arrange a POD that would place the holy land under a sovereign government pre WW2.

Perhaps Turkey stays out of WW1 or Transjordan is independent, basically any sovereign state is going to kindly rebuff the suggestion of taking in the Jews.

Maybe, or maybe not.

Lots of wester-educated citizens/subjects with little or no loyalty to Europe could be seen as desireable by Hashemite and Ottoman alike.

HTG
 
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