WI the Falklands fell to Von Spee in 1914?
- Thread starter Tocomocho
- Start date
If by some miracle they had managed to do so how long could they have held it. Not more than a month. Reinforcements were impossible from the high seas fleet. Ammo resupply was near impossible so every round mattered. The Royal Navy would through massive strength against Von Spee, sink his ships, retake the island, and avenge Craddock. All von Spee wanted was to inflict the most damage as his tiny force was capable of before being sunk, captured or interned in a nuetral port or with tremendous luck make it home
dittomitto2445
Banned
well if he had succesed this could let the usa invoke the monroe doctorine and join the war a lot sooner
MrP
Banned
ironduke said:Iam not sure of that Mr.P 1.If Von Spee attacked just before dawn.2.If the british look outs didnt spot Von Spee.3. If he launched a sucesiful torpedo attack. (ALL HELL , YOUR WRIGHT THIS IS ASB)
Yeah, I can conceive of conditions under which the RN could have been defeated, but they rely on weird stuff like that and they all end up sounding a lot like the opening to Turtledove's Pearl Harbour.
I think beating the Battle Cruisers was 1000 to 1 shot rather than quite ASB. If the Armoured Cruisers went straight for the Battle Cruisers, they managed to avoid being hit by anything large and got two very lucky shots both Battle Cruisers might have exploded. Jutland confirmed that they had a key design flaw.
What I do not know is what size crews did Spee have and how many people the Falklands then had.
In 1982 I saw a figure of 1700 for their population. It is likely that Spee would have more people on his ships than that. Then again I assume there would be people to run the coaling station in 1914.
It is not obvious that trying to hold onto the Falklands would be a smart military move- Unless it could somehow bring Argentina into the war on the Central Powers side and even then what difference would it have made?
What I do not know is what size crews did Spee have and how many people the Falklands then had.
In 1982 I saw a figure of 1700 for their population. It is likely that Spee would have more people on his ships than that. Then again I assume there would be people to run the coaling station in 1914.
It is not obvious that trying to hold onto the Falklands would be a smart military move- Unless it could somehow bring Argentina into the war on the Central Powers side and even then what difference would it have made?
This question has appeared already several times. I´m always confused what the purpose shall be? Some raid to blow something up to humiliate the British, ok, but for what purpose should a german force occupy an unimportant island.
Apart from the fact valuable, experienced personel is lost for the war effort and conveniently (for the British) disembarks to build it´s own POW camp
Apart from the fact valuable, experienced personel is lost for the war effort and conveniently (for the British) disembarks to build it´s own POW camp
Now that is the most profound statement on how stupid an actual planned raid would have been.Steffen said:This question has appeared already several times. I´m always confused what the purpose shall be? Some raid to blow something up to humiliate the British, ok, but for what purpose should a german force occupy an unimportant island.
Apart from the fact valuable, experienced personel is lost for the war effort and conveniently (for the British) disembarks to build it´s own POW camp
Unfortunatly Von Spee and his squadron were the victims of being in the wrong place ( the Pacific) at the wrong time ( Aug 1914) and as he knew his only hope of getting his ships home was divine intervention,he went for his best alternative,raise hell for as long as possible and do as much damage to the RN logistics system as he could. He did what most warriors do in a "no win situation" do take as many of the opposition with you as you can.
Steffen, Von Spee was going to be interned or captured no matter what, he decided to go down fighting. I find it ironic though in the next war the ship named for him finds itself in the same situation.
David S Poepoe
Banned
Derek Jackson said:
There were no 'key design flaw' with the battlecruisers. Since this is relatively close to the beginning of the war perhaps the battlecruiser gunners have not become sloppy in leaving rounds of cordite about in the turrets.
To Ironduke's recommendation: "If he launched a sucesiful torpedo attack." It isn't going to work, since von Spee lacked any fast attack craft to deliver the torpedoes into range quickly.
MrP
Banned
Aye, like David says, it's not a design flaw, but a procedural flaw. However, going in as close as possible is also a bad move. Plunging shot is the best option for penetrating the turrets' armour, for that you want range. But even if you have range, then those 12" guns are going to smash you to matchwood no matter what. Now, if the scenario removed the 2 BCs or delayed their arrival, then the Germans have a better chance.
I'm not sure that keeping the squadron together was Von Spee's best bet. I'm totally unsure on the supply situation, but given the havoc other isolate German raiders caused, it strikes me that dividing his squadron could well have been a superior plan. Sure, it dilutes the fighting capability, but that's only a problem if the enemy meets you. It gives your force greater survivability, increases your chances of intercepting and destroying enemy merchant shipping and increases the amount of time the enemy must spend hunting you. Coronel was certainly a black eye for the British, but I suspect that hunting groups would have been superior in terms of tonnage sunk.
I'm not sure that keeping the squadron together was Von Spee's best bet. I'm totally unsure on the supply situation, but given the havoc other isolate German raiders caused, it strikes me that dividing his squadron could well have been a superior plan. Sure, it dilutes the fighting capability, but that's only a problem if the enemy meets you. It gives your force greater survivability, increases your chances of intercepting and destroying enemy merchant shipping and increases the amount of time the enemy must spend hunting you. Coronel was certainly a black eye for the British, but I suspect that hunting groups would have been superior in terms of tonnage sunk.
Anaxagoras
Banned
MrP said:
I agree. Look at the success the Emden had in the Indian Ocean after it was detached from Von Spee.
David S Poepoe
Banned
dittomitto2445 said:
A good point, a useless point since von Spee had no submarines with him. However, to be fair, once the Panama Canal opens the point is worthless.
dittomitto2445
Banned
could the subs still reach the panama canal? just because he didn't have any subs with him doesn't mean they couldn't have gone down there later.
but the biggest problem with this is suppling. there isn't a chance in hell that you could supply this base from so far away and going past so many hostile nation to make it work.
but the biggest problem with this is suppling. there isn't a chance in hell that you could supply this base from so far away and going past so many hostile nation to make it work.
von Spee's options...
Assuming a successful defeat of the Royal Navy, including the two battlecruisers, Spee would, IMHO, be a fool to try to invade. Recoal and run for it. Otherwise, the Royal Navy will send more forces and catch him.
He's low on ammo, dammaged-he's toast. Best bet might well be to go to the USA and intern (and hope Princess Royal doesn't catch him en route.)
I see a snowball's chance in you know where of getting home. Meanwhile, the battlecruiser is thoroughly discredited--it was intended to shred armored cruisers.
Strange things happen in war all the time, but it would have to be incredible luck for von Spee to win.
Assuming a successful defeat of the Royal Navy, including the two battlecruisers, Spee would, IMHO, be a fool to try to invade. Recoal and run for it. Otherwise, the Royal Navy will send more forces and catch him.
He's low on ammo, dammaged-he's toast. Best bet might well be to go to the USA and intern (and hope Princess Royal doesn't catch him en route.)
I see a snowball's chance in you know where of getting home. Meanwhile, the battlecruiser is thoroughly discredited--it was intended to shred armored cruisers.
Strange things happen in war all the time, but it would have to be incredible luck for von Spee to win.