Ottoman empire 2004

Straha

Banned
your challenge if you choose is to make an ottoman empire surviva to 2004

rukes
iat a minimum pre-balkan wars borders
-must own arabian peninsula

bonus points if the ottoman emprie gets egypt or the caucas or part of central asia or libya or the sudan or if it expands farther.

Use a post 1865 or for effect psot 1900 POD
 

Valamyr

Banned
That POD is too late for the OE... 1830 or no deal. And even that is stretching it a little imo. Best would be pre-napoleonic era...

PS. Your website is freaky. :D
 
The sticking point are the borders in the Balkans: with post-1865 PODs you probably can stegnthen the Turks to the point where they can whip the Serbs and the Greeks: the trouble is that whenver any Orthodox Christians revolt in the Balkans, the Russians use it as an invation to intervene militarily.

For an Ottoman empire holding Iraq, Saudi Arabia, etc. you can go a long way with a slightly different *Young Turk leadership that remains neutral in WWI. (A bit less Turkish ethnic chauvinism would help, too).

To get the Turks to hold onto a substantial chunk of the Balkans, probably need a couple of different PODs: one to get reform procedures going a bit more energetically than they did OTL 1865-1914, and another to get some effective allies on Turkey's side next time the Russians come-a-knockin'. Perhaps a German-British alliance directed vs Russia and france? (Kaiser Freidrick doesn't get throat cancer, perhaps?).
 

Straha

Banned
Valamyr said:
That POD is too late for the OE... 1830 or no deal. And even that is stretching it a little imo. Best would be pre-napoleonic era...

PS. Your website is freaky. :D
yeah I know the pic of me is an old picture,,,,
 

Xen

Banned
Its a long shot but lets say the Brits and French dont care if the Ruskies take Constantinople pushing the Ottomans out of Europe in the Russo-Turkish War in the 1870's. The Ottomans control all most of Arabia and only gets involved in WWI when they join the allies in 1918.
 
[cracks knuckles] I'm actually working on this as we speak.

The last POD is 1877, ant the Constantinople Conference intended to settle the "Eastern Question". The real power in the Ottoman Empire at the time was the reformist Grand Vizier Midhat Pasha, who was virulently against Western interference in Ottoman affairs. The Ottomans had managed to put down the revolts in Bosnia-Herzogovian and Bulgaria (the latter of which was foreign-incited) and handily defeated Serbia, but the Powers were demanding reforms in the "Christian" provinces. Midhat rejected all proposals as unnacceptable violations of Ottoman sovereignty (true, but beside the point). Sultan Abdul Hamid II was in favor of compromise and accommodation of the powers, but had just assumed the throne, had not consolidated his position, and was unable to override Midhat. As a result, the conference was a failure and provided a pretext fro Russia to declare war, even theough they didn't really have a casus belli, since even the Christian leaders were against Russian military intervention.

One of the reasons Midhat Pasha was so powerful was due to the assassination of the War Minister, Husseyn Avni Pasha, by an outraged soldier who blamed the reformists for the death of Sultan Abdul Aziz. But what if he had failed? Then there would be two powerful opposing ministers that the Sultan could have played against each other and got his way, accepting some of the European interference (which he could have subverted and undermined over time as he did historically), and there would have been no war.

The other serious problem the Ottomans had was financial. The reformists made a lot of progress modernizing the empire and its government, but they didn't really understand finance and accumulated horrendous debts. Abdul Hamid was able to consolidate all the loans and reduce payments to a reasonable sum, but the empire had lost a thrid of its revenues without really being able to lower expenditures, so the empire was essentially breaking even. With no war, the Ottomans have a significant amount of extra money to use for education, infrastructure, and the military.

So, there are the Balkans. Nicholas II was much more interested in East Asia, and maintained relatively friendly relations with the Ottomans, so once he's on the throne the Russian danger largely passes.

On to Africa. Tunis was promised to France as a quid pro quo for the British occupation of Cyprus in the Treaty of Berlin (which doesn't happen here). Thus, France can't snatch it without the threat of a general war. When troubles there reach crisis point, the Ottomans move in and restore control (Tunis was also had a huge debt load) and assume responsibilty for the Tunisian debt. Meanwhile the Urabist revolt in Egypt alarms the Porte, which fearing European intervention moves reoccupies Egypt, after negotiations with the Urabists provide for the appointment of Egyptians to the administration and military (prior to this controlled by the Turkish/Circassian/Albanian ruling elite and a large number of extremely highly paid Europeans). Subsequently troops are sent to restore order in the Sudan and end the Mahdist revolt (would have been easy in 1882-83).

In Arabia, in the early 1870s, the Ottomans had reasserted their control over the Persian gulf coast of the peninsula, and cotrolled the whole coast up to and including Qatar, and nominally the entire Arabian interior (the Saudis acknowledged Ottoman suzerainty historically until WWI). Given greater financial and military resources, the whole peninsula except Aden, Oman, the Trucial States, and Bahrain are integrated into the empire.

While agitation by the Balkan Christians remains an issue, the stonger ATL empire is able to contain the problem. Little known to most people, the Balkans were about 45% Muslim in 1876, and the Danube province, which formed the bulk of Bulgaria, actually had a Muslim majority.

In Central Africa, the Ottomans, in control of the Sudan and Libya, are able to enforce their claims to much of the Sahara region encompasing today's Chad and much of Niger (Historically, Bornu, the largest state in the area [around Lake Chad] raised the Ottoman flag in 1891 to try to avoid falling under British & French rule).

Eventually, a general European war occurs, say around the WWI timeframe, and the Ottomans stay neutral and take advantage of the opportunity to abolish the capitulations and extend and consolidate their power in the Mid East, assuming control over the entire Arabian Peninsula except Aden.

Migration and population growth swamp the Christian population of the Balkans, and oil development (Iraq was known to have oil since the 1880s) provides the empire with the financial resources to become a serious power. the collapse of Tsarist Russia allows the Ottomans to move into the Caucasus, Crimea, and Central Asia, liberating the Muslim populations and doubling the number of ethnic Turks in the empire.

By 2004 the population of the Ottoman Empire is 400 million, and it controls the vast majority of the world's oil reserves. Extremely low taxation and local autonomy hold together the enormous empire, as well as Muslim solidarity.

Here's a map of the empire in 1923 - ignore the blue lines; they are the routes for the Imperial Airship Scheme.

OE 1923.gif
 
You've certainly thought this one through, but I still think that giving the Ottomans all that territory in Central Africa is a stretch.
 
Plus, would Britain allow the Ottomans to keep Egypt? The Suez Canal and the route to India is a fairly important issue. Without Egypt, Ottoman retention of African territory is difficult (see the Italian grab of Libya).
 
Matt Quinn said:
Plus, would Britain allow the Ottomans to keep Egypt? The Suez Canal and the route to India is a fairly important issue. Without Egypt, Ottoman retention of African territory is difficult (see the Italian grab of Libya).

Yes. Britain tried to get the Ottomans to invade Egypt in 1882 but the Sultan wouldn't go for it, because the Ottoman Empire was too weak to absorb Egypt and assume its debt load - ditto for the Sudan - he didn't feel he had the resources to deal with Sudan.

On the map, all the territory added to the Ottoman Empire over what Egypt and the Ottomans had historically is almost entirely just the Sahara desert - there are a couple of Oases, and the Sheikhdom of Bornu. The entire population of the region at the time was perhaps 1 million, and all of it had historical ties to the Ottomans, and almost all of it acknowledged Ottoman sovereignty historically.

The British were extremely reluctant to invade Egypt, and for the next ten years their primary concern was to get out ASAP - to that effect, they tried to negotiate an Ottoman takeover, but they could never agree to acceptable terms. Provided the Ottomans guaranteed the status quo for the Canal and honored Egyptian bonds, the British would not have a problem with Ottoman occupation. The French would be livid, but then they always are.

I would agree that without Egypt/Sudan, the Ottomans would likely be limited to Libya and perhaps some ofthe Saharan oases. I don't think Italy would be a problem for a stronger Ottoman Empire - also little known, the Ottoman Navy was the third largest in the world in 1878 - but financial constraints forced Abdul Hamid to mothball the fleet.

Egypt acutally ruled all of today's Sudan, plus the northern half of Uganda, all of Eritrea and the N. Somalian coast, an inland from there to Harar. As much of this was not producing net revenue, and the Mahdist revolt had been allowed to go unchecked for too long, the British upon taking over the Egyptian government withdrew Egypt from its entire empire, including the parts leased from the Sultan, including Suakin, Massawa, and Zeila.
 
If anything, Radical Islam is going to be their biggest problem as time progresses. Wahhab and the Sauds had already caused problems for the Turks and Egyptians in the mid-19th Century. I don't see anyway for the Turks to really pull it off. Perhaps a round of stellar leadership that manages to crush Serb, Greek, and other Balkan forces in the Balkan Wars, and a concerted effort to distance themselves from the West, or a move to secularize everything, a la Mustafa Kemal, that should keep radical/reformist Islam at bay, and perhaps give them Arabia in the process.
 
Bulgaroktonos said:
If anything, Radical Islam is going to be their biggest problem as time progresses. Wahhab and the Sauds had already caused problems for the Turks and Egyptians in the mid-19th Century. I don't see anyway for the Turks to really pull it off. Perhaps a round of stellar leadership that manages to crush Serb, Greek, and other Balkan forces in the Balkan Wars, and a concerted effort to distance themselves from the West, or a move to secularize everything, a la Mustafa Kemal, that should keep radical/reformist Islam at bay, and perhaps give them Arabia in the process.

Islamism in the 19th c is not related to Islamism today. It was a series of revivalist movements that accpeted the neccessity and desirability for Progress. It was opposed to the uncritical adoption of Western culture, but believed that Western political and economic systems would have to be accommodated and adapted to Muslim culture.

The Ottomans were able to absorb these movements and essentially disarm them, but that only worked as long as the Ottoman state was in existance and able to be the voice of Islamic interests.

Wahhabism had limited appeal outside of the interior of Arabia, because it rejected all progress and innovation, and Wahhbist government had proved rapacious and destructive (they were all nomads).

Keep in mind that the Wahhabis were crushed utterly by the Ottomans and Egyptians. The interior of Arabia did not produce enough food to maintain the population; thus the Saudis were dependent upon Hasa, the coastal province on the Perisan Gulf where all the food was produced. As long as the Ottomans controlled this province, the Saudis were largely neutralized. It was Ottoman absorption into the revolution that brought the Young Turk regime into power and the concurrent Italian war in Libya that allowed the Saudis to seize this vital area. If not for the Balkan Wars and WWI, the Ottomans would have rapidly ejected the Saudis. In the 1870s it was planned to occupy Riyadh and post a permanent garrison, but the crises of the later part of the decade prevented this, and later it was easier just to rule through the Saudis as the interior was economically worthless.

The Balkan Wars occurred at the worst possible moment (it was planned that way), while the Ottomans were dealing with three major crises at once: the Young Turk revolution, the Libyan War, and a total reorganization of the army - this left the Ottomans unprepared to face a multifront war.

In 1876 they were able to easily defeat Serbia while fighting a Bulgarian rebellion, and in 1897 they crushed Greece in a few weeks. In WWI they were able to handle a multi-front war then successfully fight off the occupying powers - a total of 12 years of total warfare. I don't think under normal circumstances there was much to fear from the Balkans, especially if there was no Bulgaria.
 
Personally, I think having the Ottomans end up with the "Stans" is a bit of a stretch too. I can't see any Russian government, communist or not, letting those go without a fight.
 
Matt Quinn said:
You've certainly thought this one through, but I still think that giving the Ottomans all that territory in Central Africa is a stretch.

Matt:

Here's a map of Africa (taken from a real map from 1885); everthing in the red line was Ottoman/Egyptian historically. Note that everything else (within the dotted red line) is for the most part uninhabited desert with a couple of Oases. The Senusi order controlled or held enormous influence in almost all of this area, and was closely allied to the Ottomans historically. All of this area was historically claimed, and all of it was nominally Ottoman historically. The Ottomans also claimed the Sokoto Caliphate in Nigeria, but that would not have been possible to control. The only substantial acquisition is Bornu, which had a population of about 500,000, and was historically conquered by the Sudanese adventurer Rabih with a few thousand slave troops - in 1901 the area was conquered by the French.

The Scramble for Africa had not yet begun, and with control of Tunis, Libya, Egypt, and the Sudan, there is really no way for anyone to compete with the Ottomans for the Eastern Sahara. Britain was limited to coastal enclaves, and France had only coastal Algeria and some trading posts in Senegal.

Italy historically backed Ottoman claims because they thwarted the French. Germany will also support the Ottomans once KWII is on the throne.

Africa Events 3.gif
 
Perhaps it is simply my view of the progression of Radical Islam over the last 150 years that leads me to differ. I see it as a rather inevitable process as the Ottomans declined. That's exactly what it is, a reaction to the decline of Muslim power, and unless the Ottomans can keep the West out, which, barring huge victories against the Greeks and others, and a real move towards modernization, again, radical Islam is going to be a big problem, as the Ottomans have no real loyalty base amongst the Arabs. They need to nip the seeds of radicalism in the bud, and I'm not sure the Turks can do that.
 
Alasdair Czyrnyj said:
Personally, I think having the Ottomans end up with the "Stans" is a bit of a stretch too. I can't see any Russian government, communist or not, letting those go without a fight.

That's the result of a world war in which the Ottomans did not participate. Russia collapses into revolution and the Ottomans move in, the pretext being to prevent (historical) massacres of Muslims.

Historically, Enver Pasha went to Central Asia in 1921 and single-handedly conquered most of the region before overreaching (as usual) and losing it all. If one Ottoman commander can do that, an entire Ottoman army can do much more, especially one with more than triple the resources of the historical OE. The Balkans and Egypt provide enormous revenue with proportionately small increase in expenditure; after 1878, the Ottomans had to station just as many troops to defend their remaining territory as they did before, but without the additional revenue to support this.

I think even the historical Ottoman Empire could have accomplished this if they had stayed out of WWI. Also, although the whole map is painted "Ottoman Red", I didn't draw in the distinctions between directly administered territories and vassals. Treat that as more of the "Ottoman Commonwealth" rather than the Ottoman Empire.
 
Bulgaroktonos said:
Perhaps it is simply my view of the progression of Radical Islam over the last 150 years that leads me to differ. I see it as a rather inevitable process as the Ottomans declined. That's exactly what it is, a reaction to the decline of Muslim power, and unless the Ottomans can keep the West out, which, barring huge victories against the Greeks and others, and a real move towards modernization, again, radical Islam is going to be a big problem, as the Ottomans have no real loyalty base amongst the Arabs. They need to nip the seeds of radicalism in the bud, and I'm not sure the Turks can do that.

I think you're missing the point of the AH, which is a stronger Ottoman turnaround due to the lack of the disastrous 1877-78 war.

There has been no progression of radical Islam over the last 150 years. There was an Islamic revival in the 19th c, which was largely coopted by the Ottomans - there simply was no Muslim radicalism at all between the 1880s and the 1970s. From the 1950s to the 1970s there was Arab nationalism, but it was not Islamist, usually the opposite. The current Islamic radicalism is entirely different, unrelated to past movements, and rather new. It is also regressive, sociopathically violent, and financed by Saudi oil money which isn't there in the ATL. There is also no Israel. I don't see how there can possibly be a parallel Islamic radicalism in the ATL.

It is also mistaken that the Ottomans had no loyalty base among the Arabs; quite the opposite is true. Note that the Arab Revolt in WWI was essentially about 20,000 people, the other 7,000,000 Arabs remaining loyal. Even the Yezidi Emir of Yemen remained loyal to the Ottomans after communications had been cut off from the rest of the Empire. It is certainly true that the policies of the Young Turks undermined Arab attachment to the empire somewhat, but still most Arabs preferred a Muslim state in which they could participate to European occupation, and I don't think the Young Turks were inevitable.
 

Leo Caesius

Banned
Abdul Hadi Pasha said:
From the 1950s to the 1970s there was Arab nationalism, but it was not Islamist, usually the opposite.

It's interesting to note that all of the early Arab Nationalists were Christians - people like Michel Aflaq and George Antonius, as well as the founder of the Syrian National Socialist Party, whose name escapes me. It has been hypothesized that these men, who were religious minorities, threw their weight behind Arab nationalism as a counterweight to the threat posed by Islamism.

Ultimately, the question that I would address to those who make claims about the "progression of Radical Islam" is whether they see this as an internal development or external development. I personally see it as a mixture of internal developments and external influences; in the long run, however, I feel that the external influences carried greater weight. I certainly don't believe that there is something intrisically different about Islam that makes it susceptible to radicalism; I'll even go out on a limb and suggest that if China, for example, had gone down the same path as the Ottoman Empire, we would be experiencing similar threats from that quarter as well.

The history of late Qing, Nationalist, and Communist China might provide a good model for a hypothetical "Ottoman" empire - albeit one very different from the one John is proposing.
 

Faeelin

Banned
Leo Caesius said:
The history of late Qing, Nationalist, and Communist China might provide a good model for a hypothetical "Ottoman" empire - albeit one very different from the one John is proposing.

How so? Communism doesn't seem to be that popular in the islamic world, unless you mean some sort of psueo-islamic variant.

Myself, I have doubts that the Ottomans wouldn't avoid a bid for uniting Dar al Islam. Can the Turks reach the Indus again?

Good to see you back Leo.
 
Leo Caesius said:
It's interesting to note that all of the early Arab Nationalists were Christians - people like Michel Aflaq and George Antonius, as well as the founder of the Syrian National Socialist Party, whose name escapes me. It has been hypothesized that these men, who were religious minorities, threw their weight behind Arab nationalism as a counterweight to the threat posed by Islamism.

Ultimately, the question that I would address to those who make claims about the "progression of Radical Islam" is whether they see this as an internal development or external development. I personally see it as a mixture of internal developments and external influences; in the long run, however, I feel that the external influences carried greater weight. I certainly don't believe that there is something intrisically different about Islam that makes it susceptible to radicalism; I'll even go out on a limb and suggest that if China, for example, had gone down the same path as the Ottoman Empire, we would be experiencing similar threats from that quarter as well.

The history of late Qing, Nationalist, and Communist China might provide a good model for a hypothetical "Ottoman" empire - albeit one very different from the one John is proposing.

In the 19th c Islamist movements were absolutely reacting to the impact of external forces. The same could be argued for today, as the existing regimes are the result of the impact of imperialism. But in the 19th c Islam was creative and forward looking - possibly because there was a Caliph and an Islamic state, and the movements, although heavily sufi-influenced, were still Orthodox, wheras today the poisonous reactionary nature of Wahhabism and Shiism predominate. Today Muslims face the "double-whammy" of dedadent and oppresive governments backed largely by the West, so there is a lack of hope which is neccessary to fuel constructive movements. Also, the Israel thing doesn't help.
 

Diamond

Banned
Faeelin said:
How so? Communism doesn't seem to be that popular in the islamic world, unless you mean some sort of psueo-islamic variant.
.
I don't think he meant to imply the creation of a communist Islam state; rather, I think he meant that the evolution of the Ottoman state could follow (broadly) the same lines as China, ie corrupt (I'm sure John will dispute this) ;) , bankrupt imperial state with many different minorities starting to pull themselves apart, undergoes massive civil war after being invaded by a hostile power (Russia? as China was invaded by Japan...), transformed by some ideology (communism, islam, or rastafarianism, whatever) into a kind of 'rebirth' in the mid 20th century.
 
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