United Kingdom of Great Britain and...Spain?

From 1554 to 1558, Philip von Habsburg, King of Spain, was the consort of Queen Mary of England. He was the King-Consort of England. The marriage, unfortunately, did not produce children.
However, what if it did? Say, Philip's son Don Carlos died of some illness, rather that chucked in prison, in about 1550. A son of Philip and Mary is born in 1557, and Mary lives longer, instead of dying of cancer in '58, she survive to perhaps 1569. Enough time for things to kinda stabilize. Maybe Bess dies of cancer instead (mwahaha). So, after Mary dies, Philip becomes regent, and thier son becomes heir.

This make any sense at all?

Something like that, if it could stay unified through the Reformation and all the othe troubles, would KILL.

Would it be a formal union like the UK or just have a common monarch? That could be important.

It has to hold together without England breaking loose, though Spanish arms should help that... It could be a formidible force, though Hapsburg inbreeding is likely to produce someone like Carlos II at some point... Man, can you imagine a War of Spanish Succession where not only the Spanish crown but the English crown as well is in dispute?
As a likely byproduct is a Catholic England, England will probably have less problems with Ireland... I would say that this may actually help Gaelic, as not being banned and oppressed can always help a language...

Imajin said:

As a likely byproduct is a Catholic England, England will probably have less problems with Ireland... I would say that this may actually help Gaelic, as not being banned and oppressed can always help a language...

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Gaelic speakers might find themselves treated like the Basques. (not a recognized language in the Spanish Empire, were they?)

I'm sure Ireland could find something to dispute with England. Maybe Ireland breaks from Rome, instead.

Keenir said:

Gaelic speakers might find themselves treated like the Basques. (not a recognized language in the Spanish Empire, were they?)

I'm sure Ireland could find something to dispute with England. Maybe Ireland breaks from Rome, instead.

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Actually, the Basques had more autonomy under the Hapsburgs- they only started to loose their autonomous powers when the Bourbons took over, same happened in Catalonia, which under the Hapsburgs was the separate Kingdom of Aragon. It was really the Bourbons who created Spain as a unitary rather than loosely held together state.

Keenir said:

I'm sure Ireland could find something to dispute with England. Maybe Ireland breaks from Rome, instead.

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Interesting thought. It was the Papacy that first legitimized English sovereignty over Ireland. Perhaps the Celtic Church sees a revival?

Something else to consider: British attitudes towards Jews generally differed from those of Spain.

Imajin said:

It has to hold together without England breaking loose, though Spanish arms should help that... It could be a formidible force, though Hapsburg inbreeding is likely to produce someone like Carlos II at some point.

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Perhaps, perhaps not. Fresh blood from the Tudors, and maybe a decade or two later, the Stuarts (why not rope scotland into the union?), could kinda help alleviate those concerns, at least a bit for little while.

Hum.... More chance of a France-Spanish union, i say.

The Ubbergeek said:

Hum.... More chance of a France-Spanish union, i say.

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Mmmm.

Franco-Englo-Spanish alliance?

That's going to get EVERYONE else line up on the other side.

fhaessig said:

Mmmm.

Franco-Englo-Spanish alliance?

That's going to get EVERYONE else line up on the other side.

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Could've happened, if England only won the Hundred Years War completely, and then married into the Spanish royals later on. But yeah, then everything else would be like, "uh-uh, motherfu...oh, shit, my head's on fire!"

Problems..

This scenario, along with a successful Spanish Invasion in 1588, have been argued on here before. They conveniently forget some structural economic and genetic weaknesses in Spain which made its decline during the 17th Century more or less inevitable.

Of course, Spain was in union with Portugal from 1580 to 1640 (as I recall) and Philip II presided over the zenith of Spanish Imperial power but he was unable to either defeat England or put an end to the revolt in the Netherlands. The "Pavane" scenario, in which the Spanish conquer England in 1588 and the Valois are overthrown by the Guise in France, is the most likely scenario but I can't see a long-lasting Triple Alliance given the history of both Anglo-French and Franco-Spanish rivalry. Prolonged conflict would further weaken Spain economically.

"Pavane" envisaged a long conflict in Germany for a victorious Catholic Western Europe. If, as I suspect, that alliance proves unstable, there is the potential for an expanded Thirty Years War developing into a pan-European conflict.

Keenir said:

Gaelic speakers might find themselves treated like the Basques. (not a recognized language in the Spanish Empire, were they?)

I'm sure Ireland could find something to dispute with England. Maybe Ireland breaks from Rome, instead.

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In Habsburg Spain there was mp official language. In fact priests and missionaries going to the Americas had to learn Nahuatl, Quechua or Guaraní; the printings in Manila only published in chinese and the chaplains of the navy had to speak basque if there were basques in the crew.

I've read up on this. Spain was never meant to be in permanent union with England.
One branch of the Habsburgs would take Spain and one branch would take England and 'Burgundy'. I can't remember how they were going to work this out- I think it may have been their first son getting Spain and the second England/Burgundy though I'm not sure.
This would probally end up making the reformation even better/worse with a united England and Netherlands full of protestants rising up.

So Flocc wasn't the first one to have an Anglo-Dutch Union idea.

Leej said:

One branch of the Habsburgs would take Spain and one branch would take England and 'Burgundy'. I can't remember how they were going to work this out- I think it may have been their first son getting Spain and the second England/Burgundy though I'm not sure.

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Yeah, this is correct. The son of Philip and Mary was to get England and the Spanish netherlands, while Don Carlos was to get Spain and the Kingdom of Naples and Sciliy. Mary's first phantom pregnancy was in 1555, so you could make it that year. I think she would probably name the child, if a boy, Henry Philip. So when Carlos dies, then Henry Philip would get it all. Would he be able to rule both countries effectively?

EvolvedSaurian said:

So Flocc wasn't the first one to have an Anglo-Dutch Union idea.

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Well the Anglo-Dutch Union happened in OTL, of course: the only difference is that Flocc had William and Mary have children, so it could continue into the future.

Wendell said:

Something else to consider: British attitudes towards Jews generally differed from those of Spain.

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Hm, so the English kicked out the Jews in 1290 (it was Cromwell who let them in again), and the Spanish first demanded that they joined Christianity, later still suspected that they practiced their old religion, and kicked out a lot of them either - so what do you mean?

The new state would become France's archenemy by default. Hm, if the two powers neutralize each other, the rest of Europe (HRE, Italy, Poland, Hungary, Scandinavia, Russia) could developed indisturbed by them?

Jews were officially kicked out of England in 1290.
By Tudor times however that meant little in reality. A few of Elizabeth Is top men were jewish.