Best division of Austria-Hungary after WWI

mlp

Here is a map of Austria-Hungary.
Austro_Hungary_1000.jpg

Here is Austria-Hungary after WWI.
Dissolution_of_Austria-Hungary.png

Let's assume the situation is ripe for the most logical, long-sighted and acceptable division of Austria-Hungary.(Thus, politics does not influence the division.)(Non-division is not an option) If so, how will it be divided? Or is the division of OTL the best choice of decisions?
 
Clandango

Clandango

It probably depends how people are treated by their new overlords. For instance, the Bosnians, Croats, and Slovenes joined Serbia in the thought that they would be equal or something of the sort, but religion, language, and politics drove them apart in the future... Though I could just be thinking of the Ustache as representing more of the Croats than they actualy did. Anyways, for this Albania needs to also be taken into account, since it was partially French occupied, a failed state, and the Greeks, Albanians, Serbs, and Montenegrins all wanted a piece of it. The US stopped that, though. Perhaps the US lobby for the immigrants from this area helps settle things down, like the American Czechs did in Yugoslavia? Or just partition Albania to make some of the other countries habby. Really though, I think Serbia should not have gotten Montenegro. A real jerk move to annex a state that had been independent over a century longer than your own and taking it after it tried to help you in a war started due to caring more for expansion than the actual welfare of Slavs.

Come to think of it though... franz Ferdninan and his wife from Bohemia had kids, I think. At least I recall him saying as his last words she had to live for their children. Perhaps the morganic marriage is removed so that their children can be a unifying figure?
 

Nocrazy

Banned
Clandango said:
Come to think of it though... franz Ferdninan and his wife from Bohemia had kids, I think. At least I recall him saying as his last words she had to live for their children. Perhaps the morganic marriage is removed so that their children can be a unifying figure?
Click to expand...

Not the same kids.
 

Karelian

The major borders are drawn as follows
https://www.dropbox.com/s/cqjoyck2q8bni6d/AH-trade federation.jpg?dl=0
-The following areas are ceded off to other countries:
-South Tyrol to Italy.

South Slav-majority areas to federative Kingdom of Yugoslavia, consisting of Bosnia-Herzegovina, Croatia and Slovenia + pre-war territories of Serbia and Montenegro.

-Most Romanian-majority areas to Romania, accompanied with population transfers to concentrate the smaller enclaves of local Hungarians to a corridor from Hungary to the Székely-majority part of the region through Kolozsvár area.

-Polish part of Galicia-Lodomeria to Poland.

The remaining parts of the former empire form a monetary union combined with a customs union and free trade area where people and goods can move without hindrance. Every member of the union guarantees the rights of linguistic, ethnic, and religious minorities in their respective territories, as well as forming joint guarantees to the new borders of all member states.
 

edgeworthy

Karelian said:
The major borders are drawn as follows
https://www.dropbox.com/s/cqjoyck2q8bni6d/AH-trade federation.jpg?dl=0
-The following areas are ceded off to other countries:
-South Tyrol to Italy.

South Slav-majority areas to federative Kingdom of Yugoslavia, consisting of Bosnia-Herzegovina, Croatia and Slovenia + pre-war territories of Serbia and Montenegro.

-Most Romanian-majority areas to Romania, accompanied with population transfers to concentrate the smaller enclaves of local Hungarians to a corridor from Hungary to the Székely-majority part of the region through Kolozsvár area.

-Polish part of Galicia-Lodomeria to Poland.

The remaining parts of the former empire form a monetary union combined with a customs union and free trade area where people and goods can move without hindrance. Every member of the union guarantees the rights of linguistic, ethnic, and religious minorities in their respective territories, as well as forming joint guarantees to the new borders of all member states.
Click to expand...

The South Tyrol is very German.

Even today the road signs are in German, as are the newspapers.
And everyone I have ever met speaks German!
 

Karelian

edgeworthy said:
The South Tyrol is very German.

Even today the road signs are in German, as are the newspapers.
And everyone I have ever met speaks German!
Click to expand...

I know. I also know that Italy will be really irredentist without their pound of flesh, so something has to give.
 
Hrvatskiwi

Hrvatskiwi

Clandango said:
It probably depends how people are treated by their new overlords. For instance, the Bosnians, Croats, and Slovenes joined Serbia in the thought that they would be equal or something of the sort, but religion, language, and politics drove them apart in the future... Though I could just be thinking of the Ustache as representing more of the Croats than they actualy did.
Click to expand...

IIRC, there were under 150 Ustashe prior to getting put in power by the Nazis. I'll be able to check the number when I get home from work.

Also, the takeover of Montenegro wasn't forced or anything. At the time, they considered themselves (and were considered by everyone else) to be coastal Serbs.
 

lukedalton

edgeworthy said:
The South Tyrol is very German.

Even today the road signs are in German, as are the newspapers.
And everyone I have ever met speaks German!
Click to expand...

Yes but it hold the best defensive line possible in the zone; the italian reason for claim it were alwasys more strategic than ideological.
 

Magnum

Karelian said:
-Most Romanian-majority areas to Romania, accompanied with population transfers to concentrate the smaller enclaves of local Hungarians to a corridor from Hungary to the Székely-majority part of the region through Kolozsvár area.
Click to expand...

How about 'NO!'

Doing that would create a huge lasting animosity. Plus, Cluj and its surroundings had a significant Romanian population.

Establishment of the OTL Romanian-Hungarian border was good enough as it was. The majority-Hungarian area in eastern Transilvania (known as Székely Land) was and is still incredibly poor compared to the rest and would be doomed to further poverty if it was economically cut off from all the areas surrounding it.

Perhaps a solution would have been to have it joined to the Kingdom of Romania via a personal union, but with foreign policy, defense and trade regulations handled by Bucharest, and with free movement of people, goods and capital and a unified currency.

But even OTL, they were not treated badly by any account and integrated themselves well in the economic and cultural life of the new nation.


Regarding the rest of A-H, most of German-Austria should have been united with Germany, including most of Tyrol. Italy could have been compensated by a colony someplace, and maybe more of the Adriatic coastline, to make them shut up.

Regarding Yugoslavia, I think setting up a state with autonomy to the max for the various regions would have been the way forward.
 
Clandango

Clandango

Paul V McNutt said:
Sudentland and Austria to Germany, that way Hitler loses much of his appeal.
Click to expand...

He would just use some of his other bull explanations, like that the West was draining Germany instead of the Yanks funneling more money than the Germans had to repay, as well as strong arming the British and French to cut down the amount they got from Germany. I expect they would use the money to try buying Eupen Malmedu during the time Belgium was thinking of selling it. And the Germans would of course demand Danzig, the area disputed with Slovenia, the area disputed Hungary, plus East Silesia, Memel, one or more of their colonies back... Also, a return to their prewar borders with Denmark.
 
machine3589

machine3589

Also, a return to their prewar borders with Denmark.
Click to expand...

Considering that Hitler didn't bother to do this when Germany occupied Denmark for years, I seriously doubt that. Basically no one in Germany cared about Northern Schlesvig going to Denmark, mostly because that was the only plebiscite-based territorial loss for Germany that was not rigged.
 
Clandango

Clandango

machine3589 said:
Considering that Hitler didn't bother to do this when Germany occupied Denmark for years, I seriously doubt that. Basically no one in Germany cared about Northern Schlesvig going to Denmark, mostly because that was the only plebiscite-based territorial loss for Germany that was not rigged.
Click to expand...
That was because he thought it was a perfect size in both area and population to be made into a single Reichsgau. Besides, why do that to one of the only countries you occupied to not give you trouble? Plus Denmark fed millions of Germans, so best not to rock the boat. And keep in mind that a lot of the areas the Germans won by plebiscite looks to have been rigged in their favor, such as not letting people who came to settle there vote, but instead letting the German army and administrators who left as soon as they lost th eland to vote.
 

yourworstnightmare

Banned
The post WW1 borders are a messy affair, and I very much doubt they could be made much better than OTL. When multinational empires coallpse and nation states are the ones stepping in when the dust settles there will always be kicking and screaming, because there'd be no such thing as perfect borders (both geographically and ethnically this idea is a myth).
 
Clandango

Clandango

The reason that the Serbs killed the Archduke was to prevent him from making a solution that would satisfy the South Slavs instead of them being annexed to Serbia. Italy and Romania only entered the war because they wanted to annex land. And then there are all the areas trying to fight for independence. It was not a possibility.
 
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