Feasibility of an Independent Mormon Nation

It's been seen so often it's become a cliche: The Republic of Deseret. A must-have in those various balkanised North America timelines and maps. A nation completely populated by Mormons, often based around the area of the state of Utah or Salt Lake City (in the US, just in case you don't know).

My question is this: How likely is it for a Mormon nation to be created, when will it most likely be formed, and what are the chances for its survival?
 
The Mormons do have a chance:

If they stay in Utah then there rulers (US, Uber Mexico, California, whatnot) are busy with something else (World War, Civil War, ect) for a chance to become Indipendent

If they go somewhere else (California has always been interesting to me) and have more resoureces (All that gold) then they could possibly get there Indipendence by attracting International Aid

There key problem is Manpower, if they accept Indians they stand a better chance of survival, or if they convert more people...
 
You do win converts with polygamy so:

"Convert to Mormonism, get four wives and a reason to have a lot of kids!"

Mampower wouldn't be a problem much longer.
 

Straha

Banned
Someone else comes in and clears out the mormons. 19th century mormonism was a genuinely odd religion withp olygamy and not the current version. That and the 19th century western world didn't have tolerance for "savages" and "deviants". Mormonism would be a historical footnote as deseret is burned to the ground.
 

Darkest

Banned
Great, thank you for that, Straha. :rolleyes:

I don't think the Mormons would have their own independent nation... UNLESS they have a more unified exodus, with more members moving to the West, and they are able to take the entirety of California. I could definitely see a Republic of Deseret composed of roughly Arizona, California, Nevada, and Utah. Abandon polygamy as in OTL, don't force every new settler to convert, and you might just see this new Republic become more than a backward state. Much more feasible without the Mexican American War.
 
Hmmm, WI the Mexicans become allies? That'd be only for realpolitik, though... if the Mexicans already don't like the Protestants, they'll even less tolerate some polygamist sect...
 
I think that to have a chance of this we need a much more fragmented North America, which probably requires a POD before the Mormons even exist, and then the butterflys remove the movement entirely.

Perhaps the US looses the War of 1812 by a much greater degree: New England secedes and New Orleans becomes British, along with the Great Lakes, and the US border in the north is set to exclude what would become Winsconson, and then runs West from the southern tip of the Great Lakes. Florida remains Spanish because they didn't consider the beaten and fractious US a serious threat to Texas.

Later, the Indian removal Act is not passed, and the eariler American policy of assimilation rather than expulsion is retained, thanks in large part to the diversion of settlers into British and Spanish controlled territory, and the weakening of the Democrats after the disasterous war. This slows settlement still futher.

There is significant tension between the US and Britain in this period, and several not quite wars are fought

Later on by the 1840s, there is another flare up of Anglo-Spanish rivalry, which ends with the borders of Texas being set, at the price of an independant Florida, and a northern border to Mexico at the 42nd parallel.

In this period, something bearing a passing resembelance to OTL Mormonism emerges, and sets out West. It settles in OTL Cailfornia and the next time the Mexicans get uppity - resisting the British setting up Texas as an inpendant client state, the British sponsor their inependance as a buffer state, espite distate for their practices - they are, after all, being formed at the same time as an independant slave-holding Texas, which is bad enough to obscure it..
 
Maybe the Mormons end up never moving out of Illinois by attracting large swaths of followers, and setting up a nation based around Nauvoo? The Mormons might not have been forced out had Joseph Smith and the upper echelon decided not to piss off their lords and masters.
 
Manpower was a problem at first and they knew it -thats why one of the most important things in their religion is to breed like hell.

In a current TL of mine they throw their lot in with the CSA who are clearly winning the war- this does make them pretty much independant. In the future you can expect it to become official. I think any realistic independant deseret scenario would have to include the CSA also (or maybe some seceding northern states and a CSA-like US)
They had back in the 1850s iirc been fighting a mini civil war vs the us.
 

NapoleonXIV

Banned
In their present area I don't see how they could become and stay independent. They are still landlocked within the US, the surrounding states could simply cut them off from the rest of the world.

Also what about their standing concerning Amerinds and other settlers in the area? The Indians in Utah were very primitive but also rather hostile and other tribes might see an independent Deseret as a refuge unable to fight them off. The surrounding settlers had IIRC no good reason to love Mormons and might also see the area as easy pickings for land grabbing and/or an outlaw's paradise.
 

Glen

Moderator
WhatIsAUserName said:
It's been seen so often it's become a cliche: The Republic of Deseret. A must-have in those various balkanised North America timelines and maps. A nation completely populated by Mormons, often based around the area of the state of Utah or Salt Lake City (in the US, just in case you don't know).

My question is this: How likely is it for a Mormon nation to be created, when will it most likely be formed, and what are the chances for its survival?

It would only be possible, IMO, with outside support, as a buffer state.

That's why I felt okay to include it in one of my Balkanized Mexico maps...
 

Glen

Moderator
Leej said:
Manpower was a problem at first and they knew it -thats why one of the most important things in their religion is to breed like hell.

In a current TL of mine they throw their lot in with the CSA who are clearly winning the war- this does make them pretty much independant. In the future you can expect it to become official. I think any realistic independant deseret scenario would have to include the CSA also (or maybe some seceding northern states and a CSA-like US)
They had back in the 1850s iirc been fighting a mini civil war vs the us.

Right. Only way they make sense is as a buffer nation, with outside support.
 

Glen

Moderator
Max Sinister said:
Hmmm, WI the Mexicans become allies? That'd be only for realpolitik, though... if the Mexicans already don't like the Protestants, they'll even less tolerate some polygamist sect...

Which is actually a good reason for them to be an independent buffer state rather than annexed.

However, I also can see the Mexicans if stronger in the ATL trying to crush them entirely, drive them out of Mexican lands.
 
Hmm. Whilst I think that some ACW POD is possible, I think it's very difficult. To make such minor states viable the whole idea of Manifest Destiny and a US stretching from coast to coast needs to be nipped in the bud, or forcibely opposed by a Great Power for a long time. The only real contender is Britain, having them control the West Coast down to the 42nd parallel or lower (if the Mexicans or the Mormons themselves aren't to control California).

Even in this case, the Mormons would still have to be a client or buffer state - the only way I could see them keeping their more peculiar customs is if they become amazingly good at playing off two Powers with reasonable equal power projection in the area, as in my (very rough) sketch above, where the two powers are the Britain and Mexico, with Mexico's weakness being offset by the difficulty the British have in getting forces to the area, and having to rely on local Mormon forces (with gritte teeth).
 
I can't see the Brits of the time supporting the Moroms (read Sherlock Holmes 'a study in scarlet' to understand how Moromism was viewed in the UK).

It comes to whether the USA is willing to allow another nation to exist. That is the key here.
 
Jason said:
I can't see the Brits of the time supporting the Moroms (read Sherlock Holmes 'a study in scarlet' to understand how Moromism was viewed in the UK).
That's very true. On the other hand, think what the British thought of "the Turk", and they still supported the Ottoman Empire when it was useful. I'll modify my earlier idea. If the US has been suffciently weakened (kept on the other side of the Rockies and the Missisipi, for example), and Mexico is suffering OTL's structual weaknesses, the Mormons may be able to remian independant if they don't make to much of a nuisance of themselves to the British, if the British are the only other major power in the area.

It comes to whether the USA is willing to allow another nation to exist. That is the key here.
Exactly, that's why I think you need an early and significant POD, simply to do this, or to heavily restricy the size and power of the US.
 
Good point Alratan but I think the difference is in Britsh opinion the difference between the Turk and the alternative (the Russains), well the Turk were better. By this stage, I can't see the British favouring the Moroms over the USA (once past the 1912 sillyness, the UK was pro-USA despite what people on this board say).


Alratan said:
That's very true. On the other hand, think what the British thought of "the Turk", and they still supported the Ottoman Empire when it was useful. I'll modify my earlier idea. If the US has been suffciently weakened (kept on the other side of the Rockies and the Missisipi, for example), and Mexico is suffering OTL's structual weaknesses, the Mormons may be able to remian independant if they don't make to much of a nuisance of themselves to the British, if the British are the only other major power in the area.


Exactly, that's why I think you need an early and significant POD, simply to do this, or to heavily restricy the size and power of the US.
 
Jason said:
Good point Alratan but I think the difference is in Britsh opinion the difference between the Turk and the alternative (the Russains), well the Turk were better. By this stage, I can't see the British favouring the Moroms over the USA (once past the 1912 sillyness, the UK was pro-USA despite what people on this board say).
If the US is significantly less powerful (as required for this scenario anyway), then US-British relations could be far worse, as keeping the US down requires long term intervention. If the US were to remain strongly pro-slavery, say, if it was lacking New England and the north east states inland from there, then the jugement might be made closer.

The enemy in question could also be the Spanish/Mexicans. If the British take and hold New Orleans they will be contending with them over Florida and the Texas borders, and if they hold the West coast down to the 42nd (as is likely if they have New Orleans), then they will be needing forces in that theatre, which is a long way from Britain before the canal.

The third option is, as I mention above, a weaker US and a weak Mexico, in which case the Mormons may be able to sit in a Deserat equivilent in northern California between a Kingdom of Columbia stretching down to the 42nd parallel along the Rockies and a Mexican southern California, being a rather distasteful backwater that no-one with the ability to do so cares to spend the money to expunge.

They would need a following wind in any case, and would probably need to do a lot of unpleasant things (exterminating the men of the local natives and forcibly incorporating their women, and the like), but given their birth rate, if they could hold on in relative obscurity for 30 or 40 years, and then discover the gold when they had the population to exploit it, they might be able to do OK.
 
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