Iceland not discovered

Fabilius

It is a minor change, but the effects could be quite dramatic. In the year 870 Harald Luva starts his campaign to unite Norway. Those who flee from Norway during that period aren´t an insignificant number. 100 years later it´s believed that Iceland had a population of 40,000 which must mean that those who moved from Norway were at least more than 10,000... maybe 20,000.

Anyway, they were settlers looking for a home but without knowledge of Iceland in the west they probably would have gone to Britain. Ireland and Scotland were popular locations amongst Norwegian Vikings, but England could be as well be tempting. If the Danelaw in England gets even more settlers it upsets the power balance between the Danes and Alfred the great.
Maybe this could mean Alfred would lose against the Danes and not become the great, first king of England.
Would a more Viking dominated Britain be an interesting TL?
 

Susano

Banned
Well, there were enough nrose expeditions westwards that EVENTUALLY Iceland would be found. But youre right about that that tiemdelay could mean greater nrose emmigration to the Danelaw, which could hav eintersting results...

Oh, and when Iceland was "discovered" it was already, it appears, settled by a group of British monks. But I doubt any larger population could come from that...
 

Fabilius

Susano said:
Well, there were enough nrose expeditions westwards that EVENTUALLY Iceland would be found. But youre right about that that tiemdelay could mean greater nrose emmigration to the Danelaw, which could hav eintersting results...

Oh, and when Iceland was "discovered" it was already, it appears, settled by a group of British monks. But I doubt any larger population could come from that...
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Actually those british monks were Irish, known by norses as papes. They weren´t celebates, but had families, gradually they might have populated Iceland, but much slower. There´d be a seperate christian sect of the Irish catholic church in Iceland until... Who knows!
 

Susano

Banned
Well, uhm... Ireland is one of the British islands. So bah :D
If tehy do manage to get a hold on the island, pragmatism might dictate to not waste energy to rot out that sect of christainity, which indeed might result in some intesting religious chanegs.
 

stevep

Fabilius said:
It is a minor change, but the effects could be quite dramatic. In the year 870 Harald Luva starts his campaign to unite Norway. Those who flee from Norway during that period aren´t an insignificant number. 100 years later it´s believed that Iceland had a population of 40,000 which must mean that those who moved from Norway were at least more than 10,000... maybe 20,000.

Anyway, they were settlers looking for a home but without knowledge of Iceland in the west they probably would have gone to Britain. Ireland and Scotland were popular locations amongst Norwegian Vikings, but England could be as well be tempting. If the Danelaw in England gets even more settlers it upsets the power balance between the Danes and Alfred the great.
Maybe this could mean Alfred would lose against the Danes and not become the great, first king of England.
Would a more Viking dominated Britain be an interesting TL?
Click to expand...

How did the Norse and Danes get on. They were often rivals and although the Norse in question are refugees from the 'king' of Norway there might be tensions between the two. Also I thing the Norse settlement was predominantly in Scotland & islands and Ireland so I suspect they would have preferred to go there. This might have made a difference in possibly delaying/preventing the decline of Norse power in either or both of those regions.

Steve
 

Tyr

hmm...you are really onto something there if the Irish monks had families and all.
A sect of celtic christianity nestled away up there- if the people are determined to hold onto their way of doing things (i.e. they want to keep their women) and tell the pope to shove it I really don't see anyone bothering to go sort them out for quite some time.
 

Fabilius

stevep said:
How did the Norse and Danes get on. They were often rivals and although the Norse in question are refugees from the 'king' of Norway there might be tensions between the two. Also I thing the Norse settlement was predominantly in Scotland & islands and Ireland so I suspect they would have preferred to go there. This might have made a difference in possibly delaying/preventing the decline of Norse power in either or both of those regions.

Steve
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Yeah, it´s true, they probably would´ve preferred Scotland. In fact a lot of those who fled from Norway went to Scotland, and even founded small kingdoms. (The Icelandic sagas called them kingdoms, but we´re probably dealing with chieftains here:) )

The most likely outcome is a more nordic Scotland, and a more nordic Ireland.

Well there was some tensions, the Danes generally looked down on the norse. (We even have in the sagas mentioning of norses fighting against Danes with the English, possibly, that could have happened too).
 

Fabilius

Leej said:
hmm...you are really onto something there if the Irish monks had families and all.
A sect of celtic christianity nestled away up there- if the people are determined to hold onto their way of doing things (i.e. they want to keep their women) and tell the pope to shove it I really don't see anyone bothering to go sort them out for quite some time.
Click to expand...

Yes, those who bothered the Icelanders with their paganism were generally just lone preachers, not armies. And the Icelanders converted to christianity for the sake of trade. The celts on the other hand are more isolated, and noone feels the need to convert politicially speaking. King Olav wanted to convert the Icelanders because he wanted to convert all norse. (It isn´t until 14th century that people start seeing Norwegians and Icelanders as two different things).

So wow, the celts could theoretically speaking still be going strong. Perhaps during the 19th century the Irish home in Ireland look over to Iceland to rediscover a true Gaelic speaking country, that has celtic christianity. Maybe a whole bunch of nationalists converts making celtic christianity a major movement in both USA and Ireland.

But who is first to discover these islands if the Vikings don´t? Or is the vikings not discovering Iceland to ASB´ish?
 

Shope

Banned
The Trolls would've had time to increase their population and get organized. The ethnic cleansing of Iceland's Troll population is one of history's shameful secrets.
 

benedict XVII

Leej said:
hmm...you are really onto something there if the Irish monks had families and all.
A sect of celtic christianity nestled away up there- if the people are determined to hold onto their way of doing things (i.e. they want to keep their women) and tell the pope to shove it I really don't see anyone bothering to go sort them out for quite some time.
Click to expand...

It was very common for monks at the time to live in monasteries with their families all acroos Europe. The papacy could be flexible at times. Once in a while, you would have a reformer (Benedict of Aniana, Gérard of Brogne, etc.) would come and try to restore order. Successful for one or two generations, and then back to fornication...

Iceland wouldn't have been very different in this respect!
 

Fabilius

benedict XVII said:
It was very common for monks at the time to live in monasteries with their families all acroos Europe. The papacy could be flexible at times. Once in a while, you would have a reformer (Benedict of Aniana, Gérard of Brogne, etc.) would come and try to restore order. Successful for one or two generations, and then back to fornication...

Iceland wouldn't have been very different in this respect!
Click to expand...

Are you sure... The settlements were isolated, and they´d been doing it for generations, maybe even from the 6th century. So if they had come under papal rule, they probably would´ve formed normal families and moved from monasteries. (Well in fact they didn´t have one big monastery at all, they had villages).

So yes, Wendell, the Irish were there before the Vikings, some have even theorised they discovered America before the Vikings, although such claims have no material evidence that I know of.

And Shope, I actually once wrote a short story about the troll cleansing.
 

Fabilius

Wendell said:
One wonders if Iceland and Ireland would sort of be inverted in this world...
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Not excactly, the Irish would probably absorb the Viking population as they did in OTL, it would be bigger, but not big enough to change the culture or language drastically.
Iceland on the other hand would be Irish, but not with as strong English influence. (Maybe England would dominate Iceland later on, since Norway wouldn´t take Iceland into the Kalmar union... But I don´t think they´d have as great interest and influence as in Ireland).
 

Wendell

Fabilius said:
Not excactly, the Irish would probably absorb the Viking population as they did in OTL, it would be bigger, but not big enough to change the culture or language drastically.
Iceland on the other hand would be Irish, but not with as strong English influence. (Maybe England would dominate Iceland later on, since Norway wouldn´t take Iceland into the Kalmar union... But I don´t think they´d have as great interest and influence as in Ireland).
Click to expand...
It would be interesting to see Iceland grow under an isolated, Christianised, Irish culture...Might its own church develop?
 

Fabilius

Wendell said:
It would be interesting to see Iceland grow under an isolated, Christianised, Irish culture...Might its own church develop?
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I can´t see why not. Yeah, I agree with you on that, I always found it a shame that the celtic version of christianity didn´t hold out. They were wandering around, converting people in the north, but the catholics just saw them as pagans.
Also for that matter, it´s a shame that irish cultural inheritance, and language didn´t get to thrive.
 

Wendell

Fabilius said:
I can´t see why not. Yeah, I agree with you on that, I always found it a shame that the celtic version of christianity didn´t hold out. They were wandering around, converting people in the north, but the catholics just saw them as pagans.
Also for that matter, it´s a shame that irish cultural inheritance, and language didn´t get to thrive.
Click to expand...
Imagine, also, if they had gotten to North America first in a meaningful capacity?
 

Wendell

HueyLong said:
Isn't there a myth about that? Saint Brendan?
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Yes, there is a myth about that. However, it isa purely myth at this point in time. I am proposing lasting Irish (Icelandic) influence on part of the continent.
 
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