Nazis! In Russia?

Say instead of communism, the Nazi ideology fared well in Lenin's mind. Hitler's Nazi takeover failed in this ATL, but what if we had the Nazi revolution in Russia? The result a much larger, more powerful Nazi empire. Who would be the Axis powers in WW II? Could this even change who the Allies were? Comments?
 

HueyLong

Banned
Although, that result won't be populist or quite as scary as nazism. A perpetual Krystallnacht and not a Holocaust. No planning, just a bunch of Tsarist thugs.
 
Blackbeard said:
I'm trying to get Nazi ideology to work in Russia can you guys help me?

Full-blown Nazism isn't going to happen without Communist antecedents. According to some of my reading, one of the proto-Nazi parties in Germany was called the "National Bolsheviks."

In his last writings, Hitler claimed the Slavs had proven themselves worthy by defeating the Germans and that they were the new ruling race (I think).

Perhaps some Nazi collaborators in the USSR take that ideology and run with it, taking power somehow (apparently there were lots of demands for a freer society after the war, demands Stalin crushed--perhaps he has an earlier stroke and in the chaos, someone mounts a coup).
 
You could top off this unseemly form of Russian facism with the messianic notion of Panslavism and use and an ideological justification for what will likely end up being this timelines World War II.
 
TeeHee! you guys are great, if I can work out WW II, then I could possibly write a scenario. The only question is should the Nazis fail to take over Germany like I said?
 

HueyLong

Banned
The National Bolsheviks are a modern Russian organisation- there was no such thing in Germany. National Socialism was a name, and was corporatist and pro-business. I really dislike stupid Communism equals Nazism crap.

If you get an anti-semitic, Tsarist, fundamentalist-Orthodox government in Russia, there will never be a red scare, and there will never be a Hitler or Mussolini.

A Hitler like person might arise, but it would be in opposition to the Russian bear. No alliance could benefit both powers well.
 
" A Hitler like person might arise, but it would be in opposition to the Russian bear. No alliance could benefit both powers well."

Huey

Didn't the Nazi-Soviet pact benefit both powers, at least until Hitler broke it? True such an alliance would probably not last for a long period of time, because of the similarities between the two powers but it could have lasted longer
 
I got an idea that is a bit unrealistic but what if the Soviets capture Nazi partymen and use them as consultants from a secret base. Kind of what the US did whit Grrman rocket scientists.
 

HueyLong

Banned
I think you'll find there was, actually

Adopting the name of a Russian organisation would have been political suicide. Do you have a source, because I've never heard of them, and could not find them on the web.

Didn't the Nazi-Soviet pact benefit both powers, at least until Hitler broke it? True such an alliance would probably not last for a long period of time, because of the similarities between the two powers but it could have lasted longer

Not if you have a Fascist Russia, probably ruled by Tsar, Synod and the Black Hundreds. They will want all of the Slavs, and all of the Orthodox. Which means friction with Germany happens way earlier.

Plus, the MRP gave Germany a huge debt, and any Hitler-ish person is more likely to fear the Russian Bear.
 
HueyLong said:
Adopting the name of a Russian organisation would have been political suicide. Do you have a source, because I've never heard of them, and could not find them on the web.

Some historian wrote a trilogy of history books on Russia. The last one is "Russia Under the Bolshevik Regime."

In that one, there is a chapter discussing the situation in other European countries and it talks about a German party in the early Weimar period called "the National Bolsheviks."
 
How about Stalin?

Maybe he decides to take Russia on a far more nationalistic course sooner? Perhaps the war with Poland in the early 1920's is worse for Russia than in OTL. Lenin falls Early, and Iosef Dzhungashvili-The Man of Steel-emerges, vowing vengeance and greatness of the Rodina. How much like Nazism we made Russia could depend on several factors....maybe Stalin, or this alternate, Hitler-like figure, declares Russians to be the chosen race via some fabricated history linking them to the dispersed Israelites in Assyria?
 
Hitler defeats Russia, sets up a fascist satellite regime under Vlasov, but Germany has to capitulate after the US nuke them, and the fascist Russia survives. What about that?
 
Actually, “National Bolshevism” is a viable political movement, though in practice it acted more as a fascist splinter group. NBs tend to be very big fans of radical socialism, but they prefer to do it from a nationalist base than a Marxist one. In essence, they do it for the nation rather than the proletariat. IIRC, the Strasser brothers and Joseph Goebbels were big proponents of this movement back in the early days of the Nazi Party, and they were strongly against Hitler’s policy of cozying up to big business. Hitler, never one to forget a slight, disposed of the Strassers in the Night of the Long Knives in 1934. Goebbels stayed due to the fact that he quickly repented his sins after Hitler was released from jail in the 1920s.

As for the question at hand, I think some work would be needed to create something like the Nazis in Russia. The problem is that the conservative classes that served as a base for fascism in Europe were politically inert in Russia. They didn’t really want to do anything but keep trundling along the way they always had. In my opinion, they were mostly sponging off the tsar rather than acting as an independent class. The groups that did act independently, the Socialist Revolutionaries and the Social Democrats (the progenitors of the Bolsheviks), were really more interested in a leftist platform (land redistribution, no serfdom, and maybe a republic) than anything a fascist could sell them.

One idea I had was to have the revolution of 1905 succeed in kicking Nicholas II out, but a weak, vaguely democratic Duma takes over and proceeds to run the country down a well. In essence, I’d be transposing the Yeltsin years to the beginning of the 20th century. After a few years of nonsense, with the state crumbling, the Europeans at the gates, and an incompetent government of thieves, a strapping young Cossack comes striding out of the south, running on populism and pan-Slavism, promising the world and occasionally delivering.

If you want to really have some fun, try coming up with a way to get Baron Ungern-Sternberg in St. Petersburg. It’ll require a lot of butterflies, but if you want a real blood-drinking, Jew-slaying, Buddha-worshipping loony, he’s your man.
 
HueyLong said:
Screw Lenin.

Go with the Black Hundreds taking control of the Whites and the Tsar.
Not necessarily the Black Hundreds.. quite a few White generals ended up fighting for the Nazis in WWII most notably Pyotr Krasnov and Andrei Shkuro
 
Ivan Druzhkov said:
It’ll require a lot of butterflies, but if you want a real blood-drinking, Jew-slaying, Buddha-worshipping loony, he’s your man.

Did that guy ever read what Buddha actually was preaching???
 
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