In 1940 the Germans Attack and Conqure Spain and Portugal and by early 1941 the SS/SG desides that the Latins are a Sub race . They insualt all spanish speacking countrys and Brzial . They declear War against the Axis in June of 1941 . How would this change the War as South ,Central America mobilize to goto war against the Axis .
Germany Invaded Spain and Portugal in 1940
- Thread starter Ward
- Start date
Flocculencio
Donor
Ward said:
This might have implications for their alliance with Italy seeing as Italians are Latins as well.
Also, why does Hitler decide to do this? Franco is a fellow Fascist and could be relied on not to make trouble as long as he wasn't disturbed.
I think that the invasion of Spain and Portugal would be more trouble than it would be worth.
Proctol
Banned
WI Hitler deems that it's either capture Gibraltar or lose the whole war?
Without any negotiations he surprises everyone and sends 3 SS Divisions with support across the St Jean de Luz border crossing to rush across the 500 miles of Spain to Gibraltar. What does Franco, who had Marrano blood in him & helped save 50,000 Jews, do? What do the British do? What do the Germans do if the Spaniards impede them: turn Madrid into Guernica?
Could it spark another Spanish Civil War?
Without any negotiations he surprises everyone and sends 3 SS Divisions with support across the St Jean de Luz border crossing to rush across the 500 miles of Spain to Gibraltar. What does Franco, who had Marrano blood in him & helped save 50,000 Jews, do? What do the British do? What do the Germans do if the Spaniards impede them: turn Madrid into Guernica?
Could it spark another Spanish Civil War?
Proctol said:
O yeah, Hitler would surely turn Madrid into Guernica. But first I'm wondering what the Spanish could do against such a wave of Me111s and other such bombers: Well, they couldn't do too much. I mean, I think the Spanish air force of 1940 consisted of a mish mash of 1920s Biplanes and of aging Russian and German monoplanes. By no means the RAF. Well, let's see what the more up to date planes from the Spanish Civil war were:
Used by Franco in the war (which would be more available for Franco):
ME-109s (early versions)
Junker 52 Bombers (Again, earlier versions that I doubt could do much)
HE-51 Biplanes
HS 129 Ground Attack Plane
Used by the Republican forces (Could still be some after the war):
Soviet I-15 and I-16s
Again, by no means the RAF that was able to save London. Would madrid end up like Guernica or Dresden? No. Would it end up in worse shape then london? Yes.
And I'd also assume some British soldiers from Gibraltar could help. But I doubt it.
Spain and Germany - Alternative WW2
I certainly can't see Germany invading Spain in 1940 - there would be no point. A more likely ATL has Franco joining the Axis as a full partner in July 1940. He believes England will fall and part of his "reward" will be Gibraltar if he signs up with Hitler.
Hitler asks the Spanish to besiege Gibraltar which they do but there is nothing of strategic value left on the rock. The Navy has either returned to home waters or retires to the Eastern Mediterranean under Cunningham after the destruction of the French fleet at Oran in early July.
The Spanish Army is woefully ineffective and Hitler is forced to send Kurt Student and his paratroopers to finish the job. An airborne landing on October 18th 1940 backed up by a ground assault soon forces the British to yield and Gibraltar is occupied.
Portugal declares its neutrality in July 1940 but Hitler becomes concerned at British intentions during 1941. On January 30th 1941, a combined German/Spanish force invades Portugal across the Tagus river. Within ten days, Lisbon has fallen and Portugal is another part of the German Empire.
For Churchill, the German conquest of Iberia has shades of Napoleon about it. After Pearl Harbour, he asks Roosevelt for help in landing a force on the Galician coast. Meanwhile, in both Iberian countries, resistance quickly develops, both Communist (after June 1941) and anti-Communist.
Churchill's strategic interest in Iberia isn't shared by the Americans, who take over from the British in the Canary Islands in 1942 - Britain occupied the Canaries and the Azores in 1940 following the German occupation of Iberia.
Following Eisenhower's landing in Morocco, the local Spanish force is swept aside and the colony breaks with Madrid. The Germans under Rommel fortify both Ceuts and Meillia in response and in early 1943 both cities are ravaged as Rommel organises the last stand of the Afrika Korps there and in Tunis.
On August 15th 1944, American and Free Spanish forces landed south of Barcelona and within days had established a firm bridgehead against weakening Axis forces. At the same time, the resistance in Portugal rose against the occupying German and Spanish forces. With the Americans liberating northern France, the Germans began to withdraw back into France. On September 10th 1944, British and Free Portugese forces liberated Lisbon while four days later, American forces entered Madrid. Franco fled to Germany where he committed suicide in early May 1945. Gibraltar is liberated and returned to British rule.
After the war, both Spain and Portugal returned to more democratic forms of Government. Spain voted for a left-wing Government in the 1945 elections while Portugal was more social-democratic in nature. Both countries joined NATO in 1949 and Spain joined the original seven EU countries in 1957. Portugal joined in 1964 after a Referendum.
I certainly can't see Germany invading Spain in 1940 - there would be no point. A more likely ATL has Franco joining the Axis as a full partner in July 1940. He believes England will fall and part of his "reward" will be Gibraltar if he signs up with Hitler.
Hitler asks the Spanish to besiege Gibraltar which they do but there is nothing of strategic value left on the rock. The Navy has either returned to home waters or retires to the Eastern Mediterranean under Cunningham after the destruction of the French fleet at Oran in early July.
The Spanish Army is woefully ineffective and Hitler is forced to send Kurt Student and his paratroopers to finish the job. An airborne landing on October 18th 1940 backed up by a ground assault soon forces the British to yield and Gibraltar is occupied.
Portugal declares its neutrality in July 1940 but Hitler becomes concerned at British intentions during 1941. On January 30th 1941, a combined German/Spanish force invades Portugal across the Tagus river. Within ten days, Lisbon has fallen and Portugal is another part of the German Empire.
For Churchill, the German conquest of Iberia has shades of Napoleon about it. After Pearl Harbour, he asks Roosevelt for help in landing a force on the Galician coast. Meanwhile, in both Iberian countries, resistance quickly develops, both Communist (after June 1941) and anti-Communist.
Churchill's strategic interest in Iberia isn't shared by the Americans, who take over from the British in the Canary Islands in 1942 - Britain occupied the Canaries and the Azores in 1940 following the German occupation of Iberia.
Following Eisenhower's landing in Morocco, the local Spanish force is swept aside and the colony breaks with Madrid. The Germans under Rommel fortify both Ceuts and Meillia in response and in early 1943 both cities are ravaged as Rommel organises the last stand of the Afrika Korps there and in Tunis.
On August 15th 1944, American and Free Spanish forces landed south of Barcelona and within days had established a firm bridgehead against weakening Axis forces. At the same time, the resistance in Portugal rose against the occupying German and Spanish forces. With the Americans liberating northern France, the Germans began to withdraw back into France. On September 10th 1944, British and Free Portugese forces liberated Lisbon while four days later, American forces entered Madrid. Franco fled to Germany where he committed suicide in early May 1945. Gibraltar is liberated and returned to British rule.
After the war, both Spain and Portugal returned to more democratic forms of Government. Spain voted for a left-wing Government in the 1945 elections while Portugal was more social-democratic in nature. Both countries joined NATO in 1949 and Spain joined the original seven EU countries in 1957. Portugal joined in 1964 after a Referendum.
stodge said:
How "ineffective" would Franco's Spanish Army be, hardened by four years of civil war (and a very vicious one at that) and bolstered by an elite Foreign Legion?
I just found this on Wikipedia.
During World War II, Felix was the proposed name for a German/Spanish seizure of Gibraltar. It was scheduled for 10 January 1941 but never executed. This plan was discussed at a meeting held between Franco and Hitler in late October, 1940, in Hitler’s railroad car at Hendaye. Hitler later said he would rather have three teeth extracted than to meet with Franco again.
It is subject to historical debate if Franco overplayed his hand demanding too much from Hitler for Spanish entry into the war, or if he deliberately stymied the German dictator.
.... HMMMMMMM
During World War II, Felix was the proposed name for a German/Spanish seizure of Gibraltar. It was scheduled for 10 January 1941 but never executed. This plan was discussed at a meeting held between Franco and Hitler in late October, 1940, in Hitler’s railroad car at Hendaye. Hitler later said he would rather have three teeth extracted than to meet with Franco again.
It is subject to historical debate if Franco overplayed his hand demanding too much from Hitler for Spanish entry into the war, or if he deliberately stymied the German dictator.
.... HMMMMMMM
Gamingboy,
In light of Franco's allowing of essentially anyone to get a Spanish visa (the main method that 60,000 Jews got to safety) and the fact the Falange was not all that ideological (it had Fascists, but also Carlists, rank-and-file anti-Communists, certain Catholic elements, etc), it seems that Franco, aid from Hitler and Mussolini not withstanding, was not all that Fascist.
"Could it spark another Spanish Civil War?"
Perhaps Franco goes to the various labor camps he'd sent his opponents, hands them rifles, and kicks them in the direction of the advancing Germans. "You want to fight Fascists? Here're some FASCISTS."
But seriously, the ability to anti-Franco elements to cooperate with Franco in the event of a Nazi invasion depends on whether or not the USSR is in the war at this point. If the USSR and Nazi Germany are still allies, the Spanish Stalinists will go over to Hitler en masse. The Trotskyists and anarchists might be less willing to ally with the allies of Stalin (the Stalinists often attacked the other Republicans and ended up seizing control of the Republican movement by the end, I think), but the "enemy of my enemy" dynamic comes in.
In light of Franco's allowing of essentially anyone to get a Spanish visa (the main method that 60,000 Jews got to safety) and the fact the Falange was not all that ideological (it had Fascists, but also Carlists, rank-and-file anti-Communists, certain Catholic elements, etc), it seems that Franco, aid from Hitler and Mussolini not withstanding, was not all that Fascist.
"Could it spark another Spanish Civil War?"
Perhaps Franco goes to the various labor camps he'd sent his opponents, hands them rifles, and kicks them in the direction of the advancing Germans. "You want to fight Fascists? Here're some FASCISTS."
But seriously, the ability to anti-Franco elements to cooperate with Franco in the event of a Nazi invasion depends on whether or not the USSR is in the war at this point. If the USSR and Nazi Germany are still allies, the Spanish Stalinists will go over to Hitler en masse. The Trotskyists and anarchists might be less willing to ally with the allies of Stalin (the Stalinists often attacked the other Republicans and ended up seizing control of the Republican movement by the end, I think), but the "enemy of my enemy" dynamic comes in.
Franco wasn't very ideological. Throughout the Spanish Civil War he carefully maintained his position, and made certain he was never in some way indebted to Hitler or Mussolini to the point that he would be obligated to surrender his own freedom or that of Spain. One example was the way the Loyalists handed over the gold of Spain while France carefully worked up a degree of foreign debt, not so much as to alarm his creditors while sufficient to provide a vested interest in his ultimate triumph. He also demanded, and got, funds from British interests on the basis that Franco's defeat likely meant the loss of all their property anyway.
Once he had triumphed, he not only determined that Spain was not going to join another war, he also tried to persuade Mussolini to do the same!
Once he had triumphed, he not only determined that Spain was not going to join another war, he also tried to persuade Mussolini to do the same!
If Germany attacked Spain they might be held, Spain has some pretty good defendable terrain and with British aid the Spannish should be able to hold off the Germans- not that Germany would attack Spain just if it did happen for some asb reason.
Spain on the axis side has been done many times before and it wouldn't mean too much on the grand scale, the Spanish army of the time would have made the Italians seem competant. Gibralter would fall at some point though Britain should be able to keep Africa supplied from the other parts of the empire through Suez, Britain might even be able to keep the entrance to Gibralter open if they wreck the place as they are defeated then whenever the Spannish start to rebuild start blasting them.
Spain on the axis side has been done many times before and it wouldn't mean too much on the grand scale, the Spanish army of the time would have made the Italians seem competant. Gibralter would fall at some point though Britain should be able to keep Africa supplied from the other parts of the empire through Suez, Britain might even be able to keep the entrance to Gibralter open if they wreck the place as they are defeated then whenever the Spannish start to rebuild start blasting them.
Brilliantlight
Banned
The best thing Franco could do in the situation is to ally himself with England and allow their troops and planes be based there. Churchill would have taken him up on it and so they now have troops and planes on the European mainland. If they can get there fast enough they may be able to fight the Germans in the mountains.
Valamyr
Banned
I dont see Hitler truly waging war ala Napoleon in Iberia. Nor would I see Franco truly joining this war without an absolute necessity to do so.
But if Hitler is willing to push his bluff to the limit in 1940, moving armies to the border and saying basically "We're moving on Gibraltar, let us through or we torch Madrid on the way", then Franco would be forced to de facto join the Axis. Gibraltar would fall, compromising the Mediteranean theater substantially and forcing the Royal Navy to fall back on the Canaries.
However, the allies would later use the belligerance of Spain to create a secondary theater of operations in Iberia. Before that, though, theres a chance this could butterfly into the fall of Suez, which could have tremendous consequences. I highly doubt this would make a viable "Axis win" scenario, though, in the long run anyway.
But if Hitler is willing to push his bluff to the limit in 1940, moving armies to the border and saying basically "We're moving on Gibraltar, let us through or we torch Madrid on the way", then Franco would be forced to de facto join the Axis. Gibraltar would fall, compromising the Mediteranean theater substantially and forcing the Royal Navy to fall back on the Canaries.
However, the allies would later use the belligerance of Spain to create a secondary theater of operations in Iberia. Before that, though, theres a chance this could butterfly into the fall of Suez, which could have tremendous consequences. I highly doubt this would make a viable "Axis win" scenario, though, in the long run anyway.
Valamyr
Banned
Brilliantlight said:
I dont think he was nutty then. He *became* somewhat "nutty" after 1942. He had a good grasp on reality, politics and land warfare *on limited fronts* until then. Obviously, much of that came from his own military experiences. He showed repeatedly afterwards though, that he understood little of waging wars on enormous fronts like Russia. I think his experiences however apply well to any adventure in Spain.
Brilliantlight
Banned
Valamyr said:
If you don't think Hitler was nutty before 1942 then you have a very strict definition of nutty.
Valamyr
Banned
Brilliantlight said:
Indeed, I do.
I tend to differenciate evil megalomania (which can be productive and sometimes successful; let's face it, Hitler had his hour under the sun), from the state of advanced paranoia coupled with sheer lunacy that characterized his later years and made his leadership totally inefficient.
In the context of wondering whether or not he could pull off any insanity, I think the answer would be much more likely to be yes in the latter years.
Then again, I think I could amend my dates to admit that by Dec. 11 1941, he definitely had taken a huge step towards being truly "nutty". He didn't respond very well to stepbacks, it seems.