Martha Washington Captured by the British in 1776

Faeelin

Banned
A bit of an off the wall idea, but anyway...

In June of 1776, bitter at the utter collapse of the royalist position in Virginia, Lord Dunmore (Virginia's governor) launched a raid on Mount Vernon in an attempt to kidnap Martha Washington.

In OTL this was unsuccessful and was beaten back well in advance, but WI it wasn't?

Martha wouldn't be put in a prison ship, being the wife of an American officer, but she would probably be sent to Britain, and could certainly die enroute.

There are a couple ways this could go:

1) Martha Washington dies enroute. Washington gets a bit more embittered, but the Americans still win. This probably has some knock on effects when he is president during the Revolution, but maybe not.

2) Martha Washington ends up in Britain,where nobody knows quite what to do with her (and is frankly a bit embarrassed that Lord Dunmore captured her, since she isn't a rebel and "Britain captured woman from her home, sends her across the Atlantic" isn't the kind of thing that wins friends.

Martha is given a stipend, and lives comfortably in Britain until the conclusion of the war. She does end up meeting and striking up a friendship with several of the Opposition, notably Fox.

But, 7 years of living in another country on her own has an effect; and she ends up becoming a bit more outspoken and independent; think Abigail Adams of OTL.


Thoughts?
 

Evan

I think that Washington had more than enough self-control that his wife's capture wouldn't make a sizable difference to any of his significant decisions. Any impacts on this would be through unpredictable butterflies. Similarly, I suppose this wouldn't have an impact on the Declaration of Independence (which, IIRC, is currently being written while the Congressmen are waiting for the okay from the state legislatures).

Similarly, no matter how devastated Mount Vernon is through the raid and the lack of whatever management Martha Washington gave it (I don't know how much personal impact she had), that isn't going to change Washington's decision to assume the Presidency. There's a bare chance it might tip the balance and have him decide to leave after a single term, but I don't think so.

The only possible significant impact (unless she does something totally unexpected with Fox et al), is that, if I remember correctly, Martha Washington was significant in organizing several supply drives for the Continental Army. Someone else would step up, but it's possible they might be less competent and the Continental Army would be somewhat less-effective.

Congratulations, though - you've found a seemingly-significant PoD that probably has next to no impact!
 

Faeelin

Banned
That's because you haven't explored, the maximalist outcome: Martha's deported to England, where she is freed by John Paul Jones and ends up at the French Court. Her experiences cause her to align with Abigail Adams for an earlier Feminist push in the young Republic, and her experience with

Plus the marine corps get an epic line. From the Halls of Montezuma to the Prisons of Old Surrey. We'll fight our country's battles, until all of us our free...
 

naraht

Faeelin said:
Plus the marine corps get an epic line. From the Halls of Montezuma to the Prisons of Old Surrey. We'll fight our country's battles, until all of us our free...
Click to expand...

Jails rather than Prisons, in the rhythm, you are replacing the one syllable 'Halls'
 

Arafeel

Faeelin said:
That's because you haven't explored, the maximalist outcome: Martha's deported to England, where she is freed by John Paul Jones and ends up at the French Court.
Click to expand...

Can you imagine the romance novels and the films such a story would inspire?
 

Turek

Pesterfield said:
What about "Surrender or we kill your wife."

Or is everything to gentlemanly for that?
Click to expand...

Meh. It's probably frowned upon, it's like a war crime. Comparatively. She's not really a POW now is she? They march up to a home, take a woman (though she is the wife of a commander) and threaten to kill her? In the sexist environment of the 1770s, I don't think they could pull that off. Throughout history, the survivors of massacres and other war acts have usually been women and children.
 

Admiral Matt

Gone Fishin'
Evan said:
The only possible significant impact (unless she does something totally unexpected with Fox et al), is that, if I remember correctly, Martha Washington was significant in organizing several supply drives for the Continental Army. Someone else would step up, but it's possible they might be less competent and the Continental Army would be somewhat less-effective.

Congratulations, though - you've found a seemingly-significant PoD that probably has next to no impact!
Click to expand...

Isn't that a bit ridiculous? Washington will make every decision as commander and later president exactly the same despite an absence of years or the death of the most important person in his life? Because he has "self-control?"

Do we have any reason to believe that the man had absolutely no relationship with his wife?

Isn't it likely that it was partly the support of his wife that helped him maintain that level of self control?

Washington was an incredibly unusual man, who behaved in an extremely atypical manner for a general president of a revolutionary republic. It was an incredibly lucky thing for the United States, and it was mandated strictly by his personality. You can't kidnap a man's wife and keep her away for most of a decade (if she lives) and expect him to behave exactly as he would otherwise!
 

Evan

Admiral Matt said:
Washington was an incredibly unusual man, who behaved in an extremely atypical manner for a general president of a revolutionary republic. It was an incredibly lucky thing for the United States, and it was mandated strictly by his personality. You can't kidnap a man's wife and keep her away for most of a decade (if she lives) and expect him to behave exactly as he would otherwise!
Click to expand...

Admiral Matt said:
Isn't that a bit ridiculous? Washington will make every decision as commander and later president exactly the same despite an absence of years or the death of the most important person in his life? Because he has "self-control?"
Click to expand...
I'm sorry; I wasn't meaning to say that. As I consider this more and more, you're probably right. I shouldn't have said "next to no impact"; I should've said something more like "next to no clear, immediate, or predictable impact." We can't predict any specific course this will go on, and there's a decent argument against any sort of course it's set on. I could see a number of different TL's coming out of this, and I could see them justly being criticized for doing too much violence to Washington's personality - but, yes, as you say, there'd be some argument for them. In fact, as I consider this matter further, the case for some difference becomes stronger and stronger...

Myself, I think the most plausible sequence, apart from Washington being less energetic in pushing his case before Congress during the war - I don't know much about that - might be: Martha Washington dies before peace (select whatever date you want.) George Washington is depressed. Perhaps the Federalist movement, whose leaders Washington hosted at periodic dinner parties at Mount Vernon, suffers setbacks, and we end up with a Constitution much looser than OTL's. Or perhaps not; there were a lot of other Federalist leaders, I think something like the Philadelphia Convention would've come about anyway, and Washington never spoke in the Convention except once at the end. (Of course, it's an open question how much he influenced people by what he said off the floor.) So then, Washington, much more tired than iOTL, might react differently to the Whiskey Rebellion... or (I think the strongest point) he might retire after a single term.
 

Mark Ford

The Government falls within days of Mrs Washington arriveing in London and she returns to the USA on the first available ship along with Britain's first ambassador. The duke of Wellington becomes the first Conservative PM in 52 years, due to the fact that the Liberals don't wage war on women.
 

mrmandias

Merriam Webster's has 'jail' and "gaol" pronounced as \ˈjāl\. Its possible, of course, that this POD butterflies American pronunciation. But probably not.

I agree with the posters who think that the main affect of this is to strengthen American rebel resolve and cause an almighty scandal in London.
 

Admiral Matt

Gone Fishin'
Evan said:
I'm sorry; I wasn't meaning to say that. As I consider this more and more, you're probably right. I shouldn't have said "next to no impact"; I should've said something more like "next to no clear, immediate, or predictable impact." We can't predict any specific course this will go on, and there's a decent argument against any sort of course it's set on. I could see a number of different TL's coming out of this, and I could see them justly being criticized for doing too much violence to Washington's personality - but, yes, as you say, there'd be some argument for them. In fact, as I consider this matter further, the case for some difference becomes stronger and stronger...

Myself, I think the most plausible sequence, apart from Washington being less energetic in pushing his case before Congress during the war - I don't know much about that - might be: Martha Washington dies before peace (select whatever date you want.) George Washington is depressed. Perhaps the Federalist movement, whose leaders Washington hosted at periodic dinner parties at Mount Vernon, suffers setbacks, and we end up with a Constitution much looser than OTL's. Or perhaps not; there were a lot of other Federalist leaders, I think something like the Philadelphia Convention would've come about anyway, and Washington never spoke in the Convention except once at the end. (Of course, it's an open question how much he influenced people by what he said off the floor.) So then, Washington, much more tired than iOTL, might react differently to the Whiskey Rebellion... or (I think the strongest point) he might retire after a single term.
Click to expand...

Yeah, it's not clear cut. Something would change, but personality differences can be very difficult to predict.

Those divergences are certainly possible. I do note that you're still assuming nothing changes while he is actually president. The man set an enormous amount of precedent and ran the entire country - even if he went the same eight years I suspect it could alter things dramatically. Though I'd need to read a detailed account of his presidency to even begin to suggest how.
 

Admiral Matt

Gone Fishin'
mrmandias said:
Merriam Webster's has 'jail' and "gaol" pronounced as \ˈjāl\. Its possible, of course, that this POD butterflies American pronunciation. But probably not.
Click to expand...

Well, American English has been in many ways the more conservative of the two. For one thing, the oft-corrected name of Edinburg was still pronounced ed-in-berg two centuries ago just as Americans would assume, but is now closer to ed-in-bur-uh to natives. It's possible what we say was the original pronunciation and it's modern British English that has changed.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top
Top