Let say the Israeli had the F-14 Yom Kipper war

Jason222

Banned
Let say USA F-14 project start 3 years early. This easily allow Israel having few them Yom Kipper war. My option it depend how many Israel had available first place. They just little bit faster but carry just over 2,000 pounds more in weapons and other things. Israel might face slightly lower loses but still did much change fate of the war.
 

Pangur

Donor
Let say USA F-14 project start 3 years early. This easily allow Israel having few them Yom Kipper war. My option it depend how many Israel had available first place. They just little bit faster but carry just over 2,000 pounds more in weapons and other things. Israel might face slightly lower loses but still did much change fate of the war.

Not wildly impossible I guess however would the F-14 fit into IAF doctrine & tactics. The reason I ask is that well when it came available the IDF did not go buy them.
 
And if they had the Phoenix...the Phoenix might still be around...

Those had quite the range on them. Designed to shoot down Soviet bombers (and maybe even anti-ship missiles) that threatened the Navy. If an Israeli F-14 fired one off over Gaza, it could shoot down a Syrian bomber over the Golan Heights! An exageration, of course, but made for the sake of would the IDF need either that missile (unless it can be made to intercept SCUDs) or the F-14 to defend such a small area.
 

Jason222

Banned
Those had quite the range on them. Designed to shoot down Soviet bombers (and maybe even anti-ship missiles) that threatened the Navy. If an Israeli F-14 fired one off over Gaza, it could shoot down a Syrian bomber over the Golan Heights! An exageration, of course, but made for the sake of would the IDF need either that missile (unless it can be made to intercept SCUDs) or the F-14 to defend such a small area.
If F-14 range hit target tanks just from sea Galilee to other side into Syria border change out come entire Yom Kipper war. Israeli depend lot more air support same Sinai desert entire war would different.
Reason Israel want the F-15 fact deal Mig-25. It possible Israel push F-14 not able Mach 3.5 the F-15 was combine missile catch it . Now it is possible that Israel found way push it up to that speed or design missile did trick with F-14 which is big maybe. Boeing want kill Israel for getting US government to stop funding F-15 program.
 
Those had quite the range on them. Designed to shoot down Soviet bombers (and maybe even anti-ship missiles) that threatened the Navy. If an Israeli F-14 fired one off over Gaza, it could shoot down a Syrian bomber over the Golan Heights! An exageration, of course, but made for the sake of would the IDF need either that missile (unless it can be made to intercept SCUDs) or the F-14 to defend such a small area.

Too bad the Israeli's biggest thread to their airforce isn't bombers but AAA first (SA-6 and SA-7!) and fighter(bombers) a distant second; enemy airforces were barely a thread to the Israeli's.
The Phoenix is pretty much useless in that environment. I also doubt if the Israeli situation would allow them to use the range on the Phoenix. Most air to air combat then was within visual range.

If anything the Israeli's need better stand-off air to ground munitions to lower their OTL losses to especially SA-6's.

If F-14 range hit target tanks just from sea Galilee to other side into Syria border change out come entire Yom Kipper war. Israeli depend lot more air support same Sinai desert entire war would different.
Reason Israel want the F-15 fact deal Mig-25. It possible Israel push F-14 not able Mach 3.5 the F-15 was combine missile catch it . Now it is possible that Israel found way push it up to that speed or design missile did trick with F-14 which is big maybe. Boeing want kill Israel for getting US government to stop funding F-15 program.

Say what? :confused:

Could you pay a little more attention to your writing? It's pretty much incomprehensible.
 

Riain

Banned
Apparently when Israeli pilots evaluated the F14 they counted the moveable flying surfaces and were taken aback by how many there were and the potential for them to go wrong with battle damage. Since an Israeli pilot landed an F15 with an entire wing ripped off they might have a point.

Another thing is that Israel was slow to adopt AAMs, their experience with Shafir 1 and R530 wasn't great considering the cost and weight/drag pentalties of early AAMs. Most kills in the 6 Day War were with guns. They didn't adopt the Sidewinder until 1969 and didn't like the Sparrow, the US pressured them into seting up an engagement where they could use Sparrow during the War of Attrition and it was a success, but they preferred IR AAMs during 1982 fighting. Given that I doubt they'd adopt a plane so dependent on missiles.
 
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Not wildly impossible I guess however would the F-14 fit into IAF doctrine & tactics. The reason I ask is that well when it came available the IDF did not go buy them.

They evaluated them, found them to be good planes but overkill for what they needed and wanted. Range was not an issue for Israelis and specially not for fighters. Extra punch with Phoenix missiles will not be worth extra cost and maintenance.

Also F-14 was pure fighter which means it would be replacement for Mirage III, which at that time were still relevant and fleet being improved by Mirage 5/Nesher. Those were known and proven quality, F-14 being still new much less so. And that holds true for Phoenix missile. Not to mention Israelis needed numbers and for same ammount of money they could get more Mirages than F-14s. And with former could depend on existing training and support infrastructure and established doctrine while latter would require building all that from scratch and figure out best ways to use them. And all that during War of Attrition.

F-14s advantages wouldn't be of much use during YKW. Arab air forces weren't as big a problem as SAM/AAA. So while F-14s could hang behind the front and fire Phonixes they would be burning big and expensive missiles for small targets. Though they could be airborne over central Israel and act as sort of reserve to quickly engage in either front when needed, Phoenix's great range allowing them to engage without need to approach frontline, so acting faster. And could be used to harass Soviet transport planes bringing supplies to Arabs far out to the sea.

So other than "cool plane with cool missile" there is little that would recomend F-14 to them and a lot that would make them say "thanks, but no thanks"
 

Pangur

Donor
Thanks Aktarian & Riain - you have both answered my question. .
I actually knew but had forgotten the Israeli view on AAM
 

Cook

Banned
Given that I doubt they'd adopt a plane so dependent on missiles.
They took the F-4 Phantom, isn't that just as dependant on missiles? The first variant of the Phantom didn't even have a gun, an external gun pod had to be fitted to them.
 
They took the F-4 Phantom, isn't that just as dependant on missiles? The first variant of the Phantom didn't even have a gun, an external gun pod had to be fitted to them.

Most of their F-4s were F-4E which had a gun

The Israelis compared the F-14 and the F-15. They thought the F-14 was too heavy, too complex, too expensive and didn't fit their doctrine. The F-14 was designed to do BVR (Beyond Visual Range) interceptions and that wasn't the environment they had.

I talked with IAF folks when they came to Langley AFB for some courses in F-15 maintenance in the late 70s. They really liked the F-15 better
 
They took the F-4 Phantom, isn't that just as dependant on missiles? The first variant of the Phantom didn't even have a gun, an external gun pod had to be fitted to them.

F-4 was primary a bomber for them, not a fighter. Mirage III and later Nesher was a fighter for them. which makes sense, if you have a pure fighter and multirole plane you use fighter for fighter stuff and multirole as bomber which can fight, if pressed, but that's not his primary mission.
 
F-14s with Pheonix missiles were more than capable of downing Mig-25s at very high altitude, high speed. Even more capable than the F-15 which could do it with Sparrows.
 

Cook

Banned
F-14s with Pheonix missiles were more than capable of downing Mig-25s at very high altitude, high speed. Even more capable than the F-15 which could do it with Sparrows.
But the Israeli’s wouldn’t be dealing with that; they’d be mixing it up with Mig-23s and Mig-21s down in the weeds.
 

Anaxagoras

Banned
The F-14 didn't fit Israeli needs, especially in that it had no ground attack capability. The Israelis needed a swing fighter, and F-4 fit the bill quite nicely.
 
The F-14 didn't fit Israeli needs, especially in that it had no ground attack capability. The Israelis needed a swing fighter, and F-4 fit the bill quite nicely.

Errrr, F-4 and F-14 are not really same generation and as such not direct competition. F-14 and F-15, however...... F-4 was more of an F-16 predecesor for Israelis
 
Umm, they are in this case, quite obviously.

Not for Israel they aren't. It's timeframe. Israel got their first F-4s in 1969. USN got their frist f-14s in 1974. You can't push their introduction forward much so F-14 will enter Israeli service after F-4 are already operational.

And another it's different role. F-14 is a fighter, F-4 is multirole. Israel planned to use F-4s primary as bomber from the start. So when they were looking at F-4 they were shopping for a bomber. F-14 (OTL) was considered as a replacement for Mirage/Nesher fighter, so when Israelis were looking at F-14 they were shopping for an interceptor.

So it's not F-4 or F-14 since one is older and ment for different role.

EDIT: obviously US started using F-4 even earlier so gap is even greater.
 
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But the Israeli’s wouldn’t be dealing with that; they’d be mixing it up with Mig-23s and Mig-21s down in the weeds.

They were dealing with both. The Egyptians and Syrians used Mig-25s, often with Soviet pilots for reconnaissance over Israel. The IDF had serious problems trying to deal with those recon flights.
 
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