Vatican analogue in Salt Lake City

The first POD is that there are small differences in Mormon doctrine - firstly that they do not come to consider the US constitution to be divinely inspired and so have much less loyalty to the union. Secondly Mormonism becomes slightly more militant, with greater emphasis on themes such as Joseph Smith's statement: "If the people will let us alone we will preach the gospel in peace. But if they come on to molest us, we will establish our religion by the sword. We will trample down our enemies and make it one gore of blood from the Rocky Mountains to the Atlantic Ocean. I will be to this generation a second Mohammed, whose motto in treating for peace was 'the Alcoran [Koran] or the Sword.' So shall it eventually be with us -- '"Joseph Smith or the Sword!'"

Joseph Smith dies at the same point and Brigham Young still leads the Mormons to Utah. However, he is determined to set up an independent State of Deseret and decides to wait until the opportune moment to secede.

Then during the American Civil War, the CSA is more successful and is recognised by Britain and France, leading to the US declaring war on them both. The US is unable to spare the numbers of troops needed to occupy Utah. Brigham Young seizes the opportunity and seceedes from the union, forming the new country Deseret which is soon recognised by Britain and France. British forces capture Washington and Oregon, while French/Mexican forces invade New Mexico with CSA and Mormon help, as well as Southern California with Mormon help.

Deseret conquers all of Nevada, southern Idaho (Britain takes the northern part), western Colorado, northern Arizona (with the southern half being conquered by Mexico), and all of Wyoming. Brigham Young orders the Mormon army, the Nauvoo Legion, to give non-Mormon settlers in the conquered territories a choice - "Joseph Smith or the sword". Most convert to Mormonism.

Cut off from the rest of the US and surrounded by hostile powers, internal pressure grows for California to break away from the union and make peace with the UK, France, Mexico, CSA and Deseret. In 1863, with Anglo/French/Mormon/Mexican forces advancing into the state, and approaching the main population centres, the Republic of California breaks away from the union and is recognised by the UK, France, Mexico, CSA and Deseret without any territorial changes. But retains close ties with the US.

Blockaded by the Royal Navy and with Washington DC in the hands of the Confederacy and British forces advancing into Maine, the USA agrees to an armistice in late 1863.

In 1864, Bismarck dies when Ferdinand Cohen-Blind's 7th May assasination attempt succeeds. There is no Austro-Prussian or Franco-Prussian war and so Germany does not unify into the German Empire.

Deseret is a theocracy, having Praise to the Man as its national anthem and with greater resources from a larger population, they are able to send greater numbers of missionaries to Europe, and by 1890 the LDS church has considerably more members than in OTL. Mormon missionary work is particuarly successful in Preston, Lancashire, England with the city becoming majority Mormon and the church ordering Prestonian Mormons not to emigrate, in order to gain a permanent foothold in the UK. Polygamy continues to be practiced in Deseret, but the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles are very paranoid about the threat of a union invasion and builds a wall around Temple Square in Salt Lake City.

Relations between the USA and the CSA-Deseret alliance remain very tense over the next few decades. The British see the French as their main rival in the late 19th century since there is no Germany. Seeking to counter France (which is allied with the CSA and Deseret) the UK goes through a period of rapprochment with the US. Anglo-American relations improved considerably in the 1880s, when the UK returned Washington and Oregon to the USA and the Republic of California re-joined the union along with the other 2 states.

There is a second great war on the North American continent which begins in 1892 in which the US intervenes on the Spanish side when the Confederacy tries to launch an invasion of Cuba. For many years the mood in the US was that it needed to vanquish the dark forces which surrounded it - an "evil alliance of the twin forces of barbarism - slavery and polygamy" and so it declares war on the CSA-Deseret alliance, despite Mormon attempts to declare neutrality.

With the agricultural backward economy of the South unable to resist Union invasion, union forces claim victory after victory. In the Mountain West however, US forces move in from the West Coast and from the Great Plains, and realising defeat is inevitable, the Mormons go on the defensive. A garrison of French troops had been present outside Salt Lake City since the signing of the Franco-Deseret treaty in 1884, but when war breaks out between Prussia and France in mid 1893, France recalls these troops from North America.

Union forces reached Salt Lake City, but the British government, fearing riots in Preston if the Mormon Prophet was captured by the Americans or Temple Square was damaged, pressures the US government into negotiating with President Wilford Woodruff. When the American ambassador met with the Mormon leader, The Prophet's reception of him was unfriendly. Woodruff allowed violent outbursts to escape him. Throwing President Cleveland's letter upon the table he exclaimed, "Fine loyalty! You are all a set of vipers, of whited sepulchres, and wanting in faith." After, growing calmer, he exclaimed: "I am a prophet, and I tell you, you will never enter Salt Lake City!"

The Mormons put up token resistance, but the city is soon captured, though American forces do not attempt to breach the walls of Temple Square. In 1903 however, the LDS leadership agrees to recognise American sovereignity over most of Salt Lake City and all of the former country of Deseret, but the US recognises the area within the walls of Temple Square, including the Salt Lake Temple, Tabernacle and Assemlby Hall, as an independent state, and it becomes the world's smallest country - named "Moroni City".
 
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mowque

Banned
I think you overestimate the power and strength of the Mormons during the civil war period.
 

Hnau

Banned
Super Cicero said:
"If the people will let us alone we will preach the gospel in peace. But if they come on to molest us, we will establish our religion by the sword. We will trample down our enemies and make it one gore of blood from the Rocky Mountains to the Atlantic Ocean. I will be to this generation a second Mohammed, whose motto in treating for peace was 'the Alcoran [Koran] or the Sword.' So shall it eventually be with us -- '"Joseph Smith or the Sword!'"

There's really no good evidence that Joseph Smith did say that. But this is alternate history, so maybe here he did.

Super Cicero said:
Then during the American Civil War, the CSA is more successful and is recognised by Britain and France, leading to the US declaring war on them both. The US is unable to spare the numbers of troops needed to occupy Utah. Brigham Young seizes the opportunity and seceedes from the union, forming the new country Deseret which is soon recognised by Britain and France. British forces capture Washington and Oregon, while French/Mexican forces invade New Mexico with CSA and Mormon help, as well as Southern California with Mormon help.

That seems unlikely to me. I think the CSA would have taken New Mexico, they had claims on it after all in OTL. I don't think Britain and France had the resources to take and hold Washington and Oregon.

Super Cicero said:
Mormon missionary work is particuarly successful in Preston, Lancashire, England with the city becoming majority Mormon and the church ordering Prestonian Mormons not to emigrate, in order to gain a permanent foothold in the UK. Polygamy continues to be practiced in Deseret

While Mormon missionary work might have benefitted from more "forced conversions" as well as a better relationship with Britain, European antagonism to polygamy was the main reason the LDS leadership had their members emigrate from there to the Utah. I see no reason why it won't be as unpopular here. I think it's stretching plausibility to say Preston becomes majority Mormon.

Super Cicero said:
"Moroni City"

Maybe as a nickname, but I don't think anyone's going to like that as the official name. Just call it Temple City. It's going to be an extremely small country being less than a tenth the size of Vatican City (only 10 acres) unless ITTL it was expanded.
 
I think you overestimate the power and strength of the Mormons during the civil war period.

Yah, how many Mormons were there?

Secondly, if the Mormons try to go around mass-coverting people, I'm sure the US will not have a problem raising troops to go crush them. It's one thing to be fighting against economically based secession. It's a whole other thing to be fighting against aggressive religious fanatics who take their tactics from the Middle Ages.

Imagine getting a letter from Uncle Jebediah saying that he was forced to convert from Methodism because Mormons threatened to rape his daughters and kill his sons. There probably wouldn't be any Mormons left by the time the US Army was done invading.
 
There was the suggestion in another thread of the Mormons heading to the Utah area while it was still Mexican and getting recognition from the US a la the Republic of Texas and Republic of California during the Mexican-American War. The headaches of incorporating an established country with widespread polygamy and a state church delay its incorporation while California and Texas get the thumbs up. Before discussions on Deseret/Utah being admitted as a state can be sorted out, the civil war breaks out and the Union gets distracted with that. I rather like that scenario as it avoids too much foolhardy thinking on the part of Brigham Young.

I'm also an advocate of earlier PODs to get Britain and France (though if you have Britain, France will just likely follow) into a committed intervention in the ACW. I think they need a reason to identify the US as a threat which must be dismembered. The problem with this is that even without the South and West, the US will still be one helluva industrial power, so it also requires a short-sighted/blindly nationalistic British leadership.
 
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