IW two Israels

I got the idea from the map thread. What if in 1948-9 Israel establishes a firm independance then Stalin creates his own Israel out of East Prussia shipping most of the Germans off. He then starts shipping in Russian/Polish jews, political dissadents, and the like. What would the language be? What are the relations going be like with the rest of the world particulary Israel and the West? Is such an Idea even plausible?
 
Mojo said:
I got the idea from the map thread. What if in 1948-9 Israel establishes a firm independance then Stalin creates his own Israel out of East Prussia shipping most of the Germans off. He then starts shipping in Russian/Polish jews, political dissadents, and the like. What would the language be? What are the relations going be like with the rest of the world particulary Israel and the West? Is such an Idea even plausible?
The country would speak Yiddish, and eventually be highly militaristic, perhaps?
 
Wendell said:
The country would speak Yiddish, and eventually be highly militaristic, perhaps?

I imagine it would have a small military just add reserves to the Warsaw Pact. But on the whole I don't believe so.
 
Mojo said:
I imagine it would have a small military just add reserves to the Warsaw Pact. But on the whole I don't believe so.
So, this Prussia would lose its Prussian-ness?
 
Yes but it wouldn't be Prussian. I imagine it would be a Yiddish state with a more religous tone than Israel.
 
Mojo said:
Yes but it wouldn't be Prussian. I imagine it would be a Yiddish state with a more religous tone than Israel.
A Soviet vassal would be LESS religious. Besides, the Soviets would never go for this idea, anyway.
 
Wendell said:
A Soviet vassal would be LESS religious. Besides, the Soviets would never go for this idea, anyway.
:confused:
But what would it take for them to go for the idea? Stalin might do it on a whim he had plas to ship jews off to a Siberian Zion IIRC
 
Mojo said:
:confused:
But what would it take for them to go for the idea? Stalin might do it on a whim he had plas to ship jews off to a Siberian Zion IIRC
Losing the Soviet Far East could do it. That is where the Jewish Autonomous Okrug sat during the Cold War. Also, Israel existing makes this hard to accept as well.
 
The only the Soviets could lose the Far East I could is being whipped by Japan which would mean defeat by Germany. Stalin might try to use it as a propaganda tool or maybe Instead of the Soviet Union annexing East Prussia the give it to Poland who settle/deport most of the survivng jews there and make it a sattlite. This could make it hard for Israel(mideast) to eastablish indepandence though.

(Yes I know its about as likley as a duck billed beaver evolvong on a obscure island continet:rolleyes: )
 
If Stalin were going to do this- and he considered it- a more likely locale is Birobidzhan, the capital to this day of the Jewish ASSR and the only stop on the trans-Siberian railway with Yiddish city signs:

19.jpg


Although East Prussia is an intriguing possibility for geographic reasons, especially post '91.

BTW, Litbel- the Lithuanian Byelorussian SSR established by Lenin in the '20s as on of the first three non-Russian SSRs- had Yiddish as a third official language.
 
What would happen to the Russian Israel after the USSR collapses(asumming it still does)? A mass exodus from there to mideast(Israel) and possibly an insurgancy of Neo-Nazi Terrorist groups trying to reclaim German land?
 
Mojo said:
What would happen to the Russian Israel after the USSR collapses(asumming it still does)? A mass exodus from there to mideast(Israel) and possibly an insurgancy of Neo-Nazi Terrorist groups trying to reclaim German land?

Well, if all of the 2 million Jews of that Soviet Israel will be able to make a good economical recovery, I can imagine many Israelis with European roots immigrating to that state.
Essnetially it'll probably join the EU and will work closely with Germany and Austria as the only three countries to speak German (Yiddish is a dialect of German after all) by the majority of their people.

Being that all of the Prussian Germans would have been kicked to East Germany, I can't see a neo-nazi group forming there.
I can, however, see the question of whether or not a unified Germany should have relations with it to be one of the most significant political rifts in German politics, with most West Germans supporting close relations, and most East Germans opposing it (which will probably only make anti-Semitism in the ex-territories of East Germany worse than it is today).
The state will probably be one of the most vocal speaker against Zionism and Israel back in the days of the Cold War, but will probably form a close alliance with Israel after the war ends.
Germany and Europe on the whole, though, would probably allow themselves to be more criticising of Israel than they are today (because it won't be the only Jewish state, and thus criticism towards Israel while having good and close relations with the european jewish state will probably have more legitimacy as an objective criticism rather than anti-semitism), and the idea of dismantling Israel will probably get more support in Europe than it has these days.
 
If East Prussia becomes North Israel, then East Germany becomes the second most advanced state in the Warsaw Pact.
Russia didn't bother to compensate Israel for the damages to Jewish property during the war the way Germany did. So the new East Prussian Jewish state in this ATL would wind up with a share of the damages? If it's going to a Warsaw Pact state, it is no skin off Russia's nose if the value of the stolen land and other property is refunded to East Prussia.
Maybe if Danzig was a condominium between East Prussia and Poland it would become capitalist on the lines of Hong Kong? That would make it a wealthy state indeed. All the smartest and hardest working people in Europe would suddenly discover a Jewish great grandmother and immigrate there for the low taxes and regulations. Right next door would be a socialist Jewish state to provide recreation and fresh vegetables and milk and fish and lumber and construction materials like sand and gravel.
Koenigsburg was relatively undamaged in the war. So it would still be full of quaint buildings and tourist stuff unless they tore it down for those housing blocks.
And Yiddish would survive as a language. Especially after all those other people arrived and assimilated.
 
interesting idea, but Stalin was really popular in Israel in 1948,
and the Soviet Union supplied most of Israels weapons during the war 1948.

But a timeline with a single jewish state in Eastern Prussia, could be really interesting.
But I can't see the Adenauer government paying money to a jewish state on german soil.
 
Also if two Israel were established then Most of Israel(mideast) emigrates would come from America what would it look like if it had almost no European influences it would also be a lot more secular. As for rebuilding could such East Prussia/New Zion could such a state break free fom the Soviet Union like Yugoslavia and trie to get in on the Marshal plan?
 
Russians didnt come in large numbers to Israel until 1991 so the existence of a second jewish homeland wouldnt really affect Israel in its wars.

How could a second jewish homeland occur. Stalin lives 2 or 3 more years and has all the jews in the warsaw pact deported to the Jewish ASSR. After the fall of communism, the Jewish ASSR with an 95% jewish population of over 2 million people secedes from the Russian Republic and declares itself Zion. Due to the years of antisemitism in the former Soviet Union, the world response to this prevents the new russian government from forcefully retaking the area.

Ties between Israel and Zion quickly form and within 5 years Zion and Israel become one nation simply called Israel.

The close proximity of the Zion part of Israel to China allows it even greater access to the Chinese markets and by 2006 Israels economy is going at top speed.
 
But what state would Zion be in? The Israelis would most likey have to develope the region to get a decet exports bissness going.
 
Mojo said:
Also if two Israel were established then Most of Israel(mideast) emigrates would come from America what would it look like if it had almost no European influences it would also be a lot more secular. As for rebuilding could such East Prussia/New Zion could such a state break free fom the Soviet Union like Yugoslavia and trie to get in on the Marshal plan?
This would only worsen mideast tensions...
 
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