Iberian Peninsula Alternate History

TheseusDeuteros

I do not know whether this issue, or a similar thread, has been posted before... Anyway, post here your ideas (and maps and flags and stories and timelines and whatever!:rolleyes:) for countries on the Iberian Peninsula around the year 1890. The history up until then has been quite the same, but there has not really been a real 'Enilghtenment'-period and the Industrial Revolution started and ended earlier.

Some ideas for proposed countries:
Navarra
Aragon
Asturias
Cantabria
Catalonia-Valencia (with the Balearic Islands [?] )
Galicia
Extremadura
Basque Country (either like this, or like this, or something else)
Andalusia
Murcia
etc.
etc.

And I am not really sure what to make of Portugal... - dividing it into Balkanised states, or let it be what it is...

By the way, I may need a map like this for the Iberian Peninsula, for an alternate history novel I am going to write (I will write the novel in Dutch, so I will need the map in Dutch then, but that will come later - it is not that hard to just convert a map from one language to another).

Thanks in advance anyway!
 

TheseusDeuteros

Sorry, I forgot to mention a couple of things:

- Also think about colonisation! Do not only focus on the 'New World', but also Africa and Asia...
- I totally forgot Andorra, I am sorry - but it is just so small. Maybe anybody has a proposal for a bigger Andorra? :D
- It is also allowed, of course, to include areas in France and Morocco somehow.
- Please just do not simply make a united Spain and a country called Portugal, like nowadays, and it would neither be original to create a big Emirate of Caliphate of Iberia, or United Iberia...

Go ahead!
 

Aztinca

Just a Rant...

Spanish Civil War accompinied by, thanks to the Policys of Nazi Germany, a massive rise in antisemitism causes Spain to be more a wreck TIOTL. Dictator Franco adopts more violent suppression policies and begins his own little holocaust targeting ethnic and political groups, in order to show the country that 'he means buisness'. Despite strong resistance, Franco keeps the pot over the cauldron until his own death in late-November, 1975. Balkanization of Spain occurs, NATO intervening two times the next few years until one last final time in the 1990's. Borders are drawn up to suit the varying ethnic population until we have a divided and still dividing Spain.

The End :)

Note: Whoops, wrong time period.....Nevertheless, the 1890's was the last chance Spain had to make long-lasting choices, for better, worse, or same as OTL (The Not-so-Terrible-Worse path, I presume?)
 
Last edited:

Pikers3

With an history based on OTL up to 1890 the most balakanised you can make Iberia is to give it 7 - 9 states based on ethnicity.

These would be

- Castile (Spain minus the ethnic bits)
- Portugal (Quite ethnically homogenous, can't balkanise)
- Andorra
- The Basque Country (More likely a small scale one, Navarre will stay in Castile)
- Catalonia
- Valenica
- Galicia (Is a very poor region so if it left Spain it would probably try and join Portugal before considering independence)
- Andalucia (This one is harder and would require Madrid to go basically mad before Andalucia would consider independence)

Or instead of Catalonia and Valenica you could have the "Catalan Countries" joined under a country call Bacavia.

The other regions you mentioned (Austurias, Aragon, Murcia and Extrumadura) don't have a reason to leave Spain and by 1890 they considered themselves Castillian
 

Pikers3

Aztinca said:
Spanish Civil War accompinied by, thanks to the Policys of Nazi Germany, a massive rise in antisemitism causes Spain to be more a wreck TIOTL. Dictator France adopts more violent suppression policies and begins his own little holocaust targeting ethnic and political groups,
Click to expand...

Wow the French are a evil in your timeline :p
 

Niko Malaka

Pikers3 said:
The other regions you mentioned (Austurias, Aragon, Murcia and Extrumadura) by 1890 they considered themselves Castillian
Click to expand...

I don't know what is your idea of "castillian", but this is not like you say. Neither of those have ever considered themselves castillians nor are them considered thus by the others. Even in modern Castille and Leon, the coined term "castellanoleonense" is often punctualized as "no, castillians and leonese" in the leonese areas. As a son of extemenians, I can assure you that "we" (rethoric, I'm madrilenian) have never considered ourselves castillians, for the same resons we don't consider ourselves pashtum or martians. This is even more true for Asturians and Aragonese... In short Castille is a well definited area which happened to give name to a medieval Crown (as did Aragon and neither valencians, catalans or balearics have ever been considered aragonese as for the people from Aragon) whose transcendence in spanish politics and identities since the 17th century is massivelly overstimated in this board and by the 1898 generation, for some reason.

Aztinca said:
Spanish Civil War accompinied by, thanks to the Policys of Nazi Germany, a massive rise in antisemitism causes Spain to be more a wreck TIOTL. Dictator Franco adopts more violent suppression policies and begins his own little holocaust targeting ethnic and political groups, in order to show the country that 'he means buisness'. Despite strong resistance, Franco keeps the pot over the cauldron until his own death in late-November, 1975. Balkanization of Spain occurs, NATO intervening two times the next few years until one last final time in the 1990's. Borders are drawn up to suit the varying ethnic population until we have a divided and still dividing Spain.

The End :)

Note: Whoops, wrong time period.....Nevertheless, the 1890's was the last chance Spain had to make long-lasting choices, for better, worse, or same as OTL (The Not-so-Terrible-Worse path, I presume?)
Click to expand...

I would be a bit difficult to use anti-semitism as an effective political weapon in a country where jews are practically non-existant.

Oh, and for general consideration, Iberia is not Jugoslavia. There is not animossity amongst the different cultual groups nor a history of ethnic wars. For example, nobody would consider a basque-andalusian marriage as a "mixed couple" or someone parents can be emmigrants from Cuenca in Barcelona while the son is a rabid catalan separatist.
 
Last edited:

TheseusDeuteros

Wow, thanks for all ideas... I am really surprised by all awesome replies!

Niko Malaka, I see that Spain and Portugal cannot be compared with the Balkan Peninsula. You are completely right; the etnic differences on the Iberian Peninsula are actually neglectable, if you would compare them to those on the Balkans...

Still, this does not have to be a reason for a happily united Spain that remains as it is. Before the war, the Germans did not really either have a problem with the Jews, did they? (okay, a little bit maybe) But when they were instigated by Hitler (do not forget the famous book "Hitler's Willing Executioners"...), they in fact reported even neghbours to the Sicherheitsdienst, and the same thing happened in my own country, the Netherlands, and in many more countries the same happened...

Another example is the horrible war in Rwanda, the Rwandan civil war of 1990-93. The Belgians, who were the colonisers, had made a distinction between Hutu and Tutsi just by looking at the darkness of the skin, the length of the nose etc. They really measured noses! The Tutsi minority was given the right to govern the country, basically, and this - of course - did not please the Hutu majority. After a few major events, the Hutu started a massacre among the Tutsi. The Western world did not really intervene - "well, it were just blacks, weren't they," many thought.
In the end, the war was stopped, and the Hutu were almost halfway exterminating the Tutsi.
Today, a couple of years after the genocide, the Tutsi have regained power again, and are suppressing the Hutu... Many Hutu have fled to the Democratic Republic of the Congo and try to destabilise Rwanda's situation from there. It is just like an endless cycle - a perpetuum mobile, just because of the length of your nose or because your skin is slighly darker or lighter!

So, it is not always logical...

Wouldn't there nevertheless be a possible reason for the Iberian peninsula to fragmentate?

Maybe a civil war, not the actual one as in history, but an earlier one?

Spanish Civil War accompinied by, thanks to the Policys of Nazi Germany, a massive rise in antisemitism causes Spain to be more a wreck TIOTL. Dictator Franco adopts more violent suppression policies and begins his own little holocaust targeting ethnic and political groups, in order to show the country that 'he means buisness'. Despite strong resistance, Franco keeps the pot over the cauldron until his own death in late-November, 1975. Balkanization of Spain occurs, NATO intervening two times the next few years until one last final time in the 1990's. Borders are drawn up to suit the varying ethnic population until we have a divided and still dividing Spain.
Click to expand...

I quite like your idea, Aztinca (well I do not like war, but I mean the idea is good...).

And, about the issue "castillian", I am not from Spain, so I do not know whether the term is more ethnic or just created because of historical events, but if the latter is the case... what are ethnic groups of the Iberian Peninsula, then?

Anyway, if anyone has more ideas, please let me know...
 
Last edited:

TheseusDeuteros

Hi,

I found a map on wikipedia, of a historical division of the Iberian Peninsula:

506-Castile_1210.png


Perhaps this is something to think about...
 

TheseusDeuteros

Hi all, thanks for all comments, and I now have made I map! - after a long period of thinking though...
It might include some implausible ideas due to the fantasy I used.
- Feel free to comment -

Anyways, here it is:
(I still have to clean the map up and add capital cities; also, it's not the good quality version because that was too big for attaching)

Spain - alternate history map RESIZED.PNG
 

miguelrj

Congratulations, you just made Basque and Catalan nationalists have some serious hard-ons! :p

Of course I can't even begin to think of a plausible turn of events to achieve this map but it's fun to see anyway.
 

Herzen's love-child

I think it needs an early POD. Best I can do, to realize as much of the map as possible:
Given a less successful Reconquista, we could have a remaining al-Andalus, a Galicia split between a N. Portugal and a Leon-Castille state. Catalunya that maybe spreads over the Pyrenees into parts of Languedoc (given a less successful unification of France perhaps because of an abortive Albigensian Crusade). Navarre or at any rate, the Basque region independently doing its thing. Aragon as part of a Catalan federation or split between Leon-Castile and Catalunya, but not existing as an independent entity.
So, 5 States in Iberia. Any further balkanisation would probably be ephemeral just as it historically was when it broke down further (Taifa States period). Small states get swallowed up in this neighborhood. They all need to basically play each other off to remain independent, allying when necessary, among each other or with the occasional non-Iberian power.
 

miguelrj

TheseusDeuteros said:
Why not?
Click to expand...
Well, I just can't find a plausible one. If you try and explain that map I can tell you why I will or will not find it a plausible turn of events.

We see kingdoms demoted to archduchies and principalities, not to mention Cantabria as a sovereign viscountcy? This probably means those petty realms were separated from Spain (and Algarve from Portugal) under duress from some kind of external source, Napoleonic style (and Congress of Vienna style too).
 

Lleibi

TheseusDeuteros said:
And also have a look at this one:

800px-Kingdom_of_Leon_1037.svg.png
Click to expand...

Which year is this? With Coimbra inside of Galicia it's after Fernando Magno conquered it, but with Castillia apart from Galicia-Leon, it means it's after his death. Galicia-Leon could only be united after Sancho and Alfonso deposed Garcia, but they both shared on the kingdom of Galicia, it wasn't given to Alfonso. Then Sancho deposed Alfonso, so the 3 kingdoms would be united until Sancho is killed, so Garcia returns to Galicia and Alfonso to Leon-Castille, until finally Garcia is imprisioned for good, with Alfonso reuniting the 3 kingdoms of his father.

So i don't see in which moment in history this map can be accurate.

Edit: According to this map, Castilla hadn't yet conquered the westernmost counties of Navarra, which sets us back to the time when Garcia, Alfonso and Sancho were each reigning their own kingdoms.
 

TheseusDeuteros

Herzen's love-child said:
I think it needs an early POD. Best I can do, to realize as much of the map as possible:
Given a less successful Reconquista, we could have a remaining al-Andalus, a Galicia split between a N. Portugal and a Leon-Castille state. Catalunya that maybe spreads over the Pyrenees into parts of Languedoc (given a less successful unification of France perhaps because of an abortive Albigensian Crusade). Navarre or at any rate, the Basque region independently doing its thing. Aragon as part of a Catalan federation or split between Leon-Castile and Catalunya, but not existing as an independent entity.
So, 5 States in Iberia. Any further balkanisation would probably be ephemeral just as it historically was when it broke down further (Taifa States period). Small states get swallowed up in this neighborhood. They all need to basically play each other off to remain independent, allying when necessary, among each other or with the occasional non-Iberian power.
Click to expand...

Thanks! :D
But still I'll try to figure out a timeline or story which will make even the balkanisation as on my map plausible. I just need to do so because I like many independent states :rolleyes: and I can't stand that Castile will be very big and powerful...
However, I don't have time at the moment... so be patient and I'll come up with something ;)
 

TheseusDeuteros

jotabe1789 said:
Which year is this? With Coimbra inside of Galicia it's after Fernando Magno conquered it, but with Castillia apart from Galicia-Leon, it means it's after his death. Galicia-Leon could only be united after Sancho and Alfonso deposed Garcia, but they both shared on the kingdom of Galicia, it wasn't given to Alfonso. Then Sancho deposed Alfonso, so the 3 kingdoms would be united until Sancho is killed, so Garcia returns to Galicia and Alfonso to Leon-Castille, until finally Garcia is imprisioned for good, with Alfonso reuniting the 3 kingdoms of his father.

So i don't see in which moment in history this map can be accurate.

Edit: According to this map, Castilla hadn't yet conquered the westernmost counties of Navarra, which sets us back to the time when Garcia, Alfonso and Sancho were each reigning their own kingdoms.
Click to expand...

The year is 1037, see http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=File:Kingdom_of_Leon_1037.svg&page=1.
But it could be wrong...
 

Lleibi

TheseusDeuteros said:
The year is 1037, see http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=File:Kingdom_of_Leon_1037.svg&page=1.
But it could be wrong...
Click to expand...
Hmmm... It's true that the border of Galicia shifted several times north and south of Coimbra, so it might be correct for 1037, but i'm almost sure the southern border of Leon and Castilla was a lot northern than that during 1037, closer to the Duero river... I'll check later :) at work atm (which means that my connection is not tunneled through the Great Firewall lol).

What makes that map suspect in my opinion is that i've seen it used in many other places and with different dates, with the only differences of just joining or separating kingdoms :D

Something amusing: there seems to be a key difference between Spanish and Portuguese historiography when it comes to plotting maps of that time: the Portuguese often plot a portion south of Leon and Castilla of scorched earth, while the Spanish mapmakers simply attribute it to the christian kingdoms.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top
Top