German Military without the Nazis.

I believe that the Weimar government would eventually built up the armed forces wether they would start a war depends on who's in power at the time.

Without the Nazis what would a rebuilt German military look like in the 40's-50's?

Depends if who menace the Weimar government and if they respect the Versailles Treaty ?

if Weimar government respect the Versailles Treaty,
Navy: 6 Battleships with 10000 ton max, 6 cruisers 6000 ton max, 12 destroyers 800 tons max, 12 torpedos boats 200 tons max. NO subs.
Army: max 100000 men, No Tanks, NO armored cars, NO artillery and restriction on production of machine guns.
Air force: NO armed Aircraft

They try to escape Versailles Treaty by development new technology, not mention in treaty.
what let to the A-4 ballistic rocket (better know as V2)
i think that Weimar if respecting the Versailles Treaty, would develop stuff like Panzerfaust (anti-tank weapon) or early STG 44 the first assault rifle.
or complete the R&D on Hydrofoil ships for Navy
on Tanks and Aircraft is difficult
they could build "reconnaissance" aircraft, who transform easy into bomber and fighter in war time.
Tanks replacement, I wonder if "Walking machines" are possibly with 1930 technology, what a wank: soviet troops running for Reichswehr walker

of curse if the Weimar government violated the Versailles Treaty
they will build allot stuff was used in WW2 by the Wehrmacht Luftwaffe Navy

If by the 40s the Weimar Republic had been a peaceful and (fairly) stable nation then I would envisage Britain, France and Italy agreeing a relaxation of many of the Versailles restrictions, particularly in view of the 'red menace'.

deathscompanion1 said:

I believe that the Weimar government would eventually built up the armed forces wether they would start a war depends on who's in power at the time.

Without the Nazis what would a rebuilt German military look like in the 40's-50's?

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No war participation I assume?
In that case I could see a smaller, but more motorised army, a smaller but similiar air force and a smaller navy starting of similiar.

The navy obviously would be expanded only in coordination with the British. An agreement like otl I suppose. That could by accident lead to some kind of carrier task force doctrine developed. Germany before 33 planned for a carrier. The agreement would probably allow for 1-2 carriers and 2-4 battleships plus escorts. With a slow build up I can see half of that, including a "pure" carrier, designed to operate in coordination with the battleships, started immediatly for testing. The second batch with the same mix possibly five to ten years later, barring a war exposing that battleships are obsolete (Pacific War?). Additionally perhaps some heavy cruisers/ further Panzerschiffe for cruiser warfare and small ships for Baltic operations.

For a similiar reason I can see Germany limiting the strategic bomber fleet: Britain would probably be content if a German airforce is incapable to threaten them and France won´t press the issue alone. Thus Germany limits itself mostly to one or two engined aircraft, concentrating on fighters and tactical bombers. Which types exactly will be build is difficult to answer, but without a war night fighters might be delayed and without need for long range escorts destroyers might be stillborn in Germany. Different personell will most likely also prevent the dive bombing obsession of otl.

And last but not least the army. The basic doctrines of otl were already strong before 33, though they might be less dominant. Nonetheless Germany will likely lead the road of motorised and mechanised combat ittl. But with a slower build up and overall less budget they will be more restricted in what to build. Czech designs obviously won´t enter service. After a few early attempts (Panzer I and II) I can see them due to budget restricted to a single hull with different turrets or upper works for the various demanded functions. Basically a III/IV carriage with two turrets (anti-tank and infantry support) as Stug/tank destroyer and SP-artillery, later complemented by an AA variant. Once the heavy Soviet tanks appear Germany might counter with heavier tanks and a similiar defensive doctrine to otl, without pressure of war slower of course. Overall they will despite less budget be probably more motorised and modern. The numbers will also be lower and slower progress prevents the need to commission already dated equipment.

deathscompanion1 said:

I believe that the Weimar government would eventually built up the armed forces wether they would start a war depends on who's in power at the time.

Without the Nazis what would a rebuilt German military look like in the 40's-50's?

Click to expand...

I assume this would be a von Schleicher succeeds scenario, where he becomes Germany's strong man instead of Hitler. Weimar was pretty much dead by 1932, it was a question of who was going to be the dictator. Hitler was the dictator of the disaffected lower middle class (among others), while Schleicher was the military dictator. So Germany under him would see many of the same goals of Hitler: casting off Versailles, stopping loan/reparation payments, remilitarizing the Rheinland, probably annexing Austria, potentially grabbing the Sudetenland, and of course revising the Polish border and annexing Danzig.

However Schleicher wasn't looking for war like Hitler and probably would have taken longer to achieve those goals, but would have followed the same path of military build up similar to the Nazis, but would likely have stretched it out over a longer, more sustainable timeframe.

The players would have stayed the same probably, but would not have been replaced with Nazis. The one difference that I can think of would have been von Blomberg, who was Schleicher's political enemy, which would have meant von Hammerstein-Equord would be the Defense Minister, not Blomberg (who was actually exiled to a frontier post in Prussia by Schleicher in the 1920's). Otherwise its likely that Wever would have the Luftwaffe, Raeder the Navy, potentially Milch in the Aviation Ministry, and definitely Schacht in charge of rearmament and the Reichsbank.

Goering would not be around obviously, nor the Nazi military force, the SS, but we would see the Gestapo taking out Schleicher's enemies, as he was in charge of the Black Reichswehr in the 1920's (they carried out assassinations of Germans cooperating with the Allies' inspectors).

The German military would be unified in a single command (OKW) and rearmament carefully carried out under the army's aegis. The Kriegsmarine would be shorted in the build up, with the Luftwaffe still getting a reasonable share of the funding pie, and the army the lion's share.
As to composition, I think by the 1940's and 1950's it would look like the 1939 force that Germany was putting together, but much better trained and younger (obviously) than the jumble of trained soldiers, conscripts, and WW1 veterans drafted in 1939.

Overall the force would be extremely professional, like how von Blomberg was trying to expand the army slowly to maintain quality IOTL before Hitler screwed up his plans, but smaller than the force Hitler demanded. I expect the military would not be ready until 1945 to actually fight a war, due to a slower, less expensive build up, and the need to maintain quality by extensively training the new conscript classes. Also the need to build up trained reserves would mean that for years training would be needed to have an effective reserve in case of war.

The equipment would be high quality, mirroring the German propensity to over engineer like in WW2. When all is done, I think the German army would be about the size of the French army, potentially bigger with reservists, but that would depend on the state of the German economy.

As a side note I don't think the Soviets would have as much of a build up as in OTL, because without Hitler shaking up the world order in Europe by threatening war constantly, which Schleicher was too cautious to do, as well as German military build up being slower than IOTL, there wouldn't be the same tensions. Germany would be bigger and economically more powerful in the 1940's than in 1932 that's for sure. Schleicher would expand, but keep it reasonable to avoid war. Even with just Austria Germany would be quite a bit more economically more sound/powerful. I do wonder if Schleicher would renew ties with the Soviets that Hitler severed in 1933. Of course the cooperation with the Reichswehr and Red Army had withered by 1933 without Hitler anyway, but perhaps a new, less ideological leader would have looked for allies in the East to counter the 'Little Entente'?

Edit:
The Luftwaffe would certainly have had a strategic bomber. Britain isn't the target though, but France, Poland, and potentially the USSR (Ural bomber?). I don't see the failure of the Do19 or Ju89 getting funding in this budget environment, so we would likely see a He177 without diving requirements (Wever's death likely butterflied and no way Udet would be in the Luftwaffe without Goering), though the twin engine disaster might still exist, meaning the He177B (four prop) still shows up in the mid 1940's.

Without Goering the Luftwaffe is technically and tactically far more proficient. It isn't sattled with the terrible intelligence arm of OTL, nor with a series of terrible leaders. Much more professional over all.

Since this thread I recently posted was ignored, but is very relevant here:
https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=258481
The German military would be far better educated on strategic issues and issues of war economics. Overall the senior leadership would be much better trained by the 1940's-1950's. The Wehrmacht (Reichswehr?) would be a far more competent force at every level than IOTL.

deathscompanion1 said:

I believe that the Weimar government would eventually built up the armed forces wether they would start a war depends on who's in power at the time.

Without the Nazis what would a rebuilt German military look like in the 40's-50's?

Click to expand...

Well, it depends on what else happens.

To begin with - suppose that a right-center authoritarian government takes power in Germany.

This government will push Britain and France to relax the strictures of Versailles.

Since Britain and France lack the will to enforce the terms, they agree to changes rather than suffer the humiliation of open German defiance.

Germany is allowed to expand the Reichswehr to 500,000 men, plus a reserve of 500,000. Germany is allowed to build some tanks, but only slow "infantry support" tanks. Germany is also allowed to start an air force - but only with single-seat fighter aircraft for defense. The German navy is allowed to expand its tonnage of cruisers and destroyers, and to add two small "battleships" - 20,000 ton versions of the "Panzerschiffes", limited to 20 knots speed. (They are for Baltic Sea defense only, basically.) Also, Germany gets to build a few submarines. (Britain ought to veto this, but the Royal Navy thought that asdic (sonar) was a magic bullet for ASW.)

In essence, Germany is allowed to prepare a limited defense against attack from Poland or possibly the USSR.

Meanwhile - the USSR continues its massive military build-up. It is arguable that OTL's build-up was driven by the threat from Nazi Germany. But the USSR was also threatened by Japan and had a lot of other enemies. ISTM that while the build-up might be smaller, it would still happen. By 1940, OTL, the USSR had more tanks in inventory than the rest of the world combined. That might still happen, at a smaller level.

And ISTM that eventually Stalin will want to use this power.

That means Germany could get involved in a war in the 1940s, and that would mean massive expansion of the Army and a lot of other stuff.

But suppose Stalin remains quiet. Germany builds up its middling army - and that's where it stands. Germany will not go to war.

Generally I think we would see generally the same like the rearmament of the Wehrmacht. It was indeed the Weimar government, who pressed the Entente powers to de facto abandon the Versailles treaty (in this regard) in late 1932. So a Weimar government would rearm as well and as well try to make a deal with Britain. Perhaps they would act even faster than Hitler did, but with a slower speed.

nothing is standing in the way of weimars reichswehr under the TOV to go full nuclear. chances are very good they'll be the first to do so.

von braun and his team deliver the big missiles to hit anything that moves. they could test it somewhere in italian or spanish africa.

what they'd do with it depends on who's in charge.

Personally, I think any German government that attempted both to rearm and avoid a second war with the allies would have to do this in a way that did not threaten Britain, France, and Czechoslovakia. A non-Nazi Germany could probably sucessfully get the allies to relax some of the most offensive limitations on German rearmament, but it would have to be done in an open manner by successive treaties. Although not explicitly, Germany might have to accept some notion of a specific/limited role in the collective defense of western Europe from Soviet and other revolutionary forces. Germany would also have to be very careful in attempting to redraw the 1919 borders. Probably the Anschluss with Austria is doable, but not anthing else.

I could see a 1940 German military in this context consisting of the following:

Navy. Germany petitions for and is granted a position as the 6th major fleet under the Washington Treaty framework. Germany accepts equality with France and Italy in the ratios, thereby clearly accepting the superiority of the RN (as well as USA and Japan). Since Germany was not allowed to keep any modern capital ships under Versailles, it is allowed to reach the treaty limits through entirely new construction, making the German navy far smaller than the old High Seas Fleet, but top to bottom more modern than the other signatories. I could see a fleet comprising a 3-4 "35,000 ton" fast battleships equivalent to the US Washingtons (essentially modernized Mackensens), perhaps 2-3 aircraft carriers (or hybrid cruiser/carriers) in the 15,000 ton range, and a fairly large fleet of small coast defense battleships/monitors. Submarines would be limited to small coastal units. The Navy would be primarily a Baltic fleet. Germany colud not appear to threaten British sea lanes so commerce raiders and ocean-going high endurance subs would have to be developed in strict secrecy, if at all.

Army. Up to 500,000 men active and the same in reserve. No limits on tanks and other armored fighting vehicles. Deployments specified by Treaty to not directly threaten France and Belgium.

Airforce. Not dissimilar from the OTL Luftwaffe, with strong emphasis on tactical aviation. army cooperation, and home defense. I doubt Germany would explicitly pursue development of strategic bombers in this situation, but experiments along such lines could be made by development of long range transports that would be amenable to redevelopment as bombers.

I agree with those that indicated Germany would also seek to exploit technological innovations and treaty gaps that would not clearly threaten the status quo as perceived by Britain and France. Things such as rocketry, jet propulshion, and nuclear weapons (remember a non Nazi-Germany might have greater access to a wider range of experts in the field)

zoomar said:

Airforce. Not dissimilar from the OTL Luftwaffe, with strong emphasis on tactical aviation. army cooperation, and home defense. I doubt Germany would explicitly pursue development of strategic bombers in this situation, but experiments along such lines could be made by development of long range transports that would be amenable to redevelopment as bombers.

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I was mostly with you up to here.
The Luftwaffe wasn't a tactical air force or really even focused on that area specifically pre-war.
http://www.amazon.com/The-Luftwaffe-Creating-Operational-1918-1940/dp/0700608362

There were very strong pushes for strategic bombing doctrine pre- and during the war. The clandestine Luftwaffe was planning for a strategic bombing force prior to the rise of the Nazis and would here too. IOTL the only reason they didn't have one ready for the war, was that it came too early for their version to be ready and of course technical problems.
In any situation the Luftwaffe would be a balanced air force, probably more so here without the pressing need for war on the horizon (Hitler was constantly pushing the development of the military to be ready for a general war by 1941). So Germany would have a tactical, operational, and strategic air force in balance ITTL, just as they tried to put together for 1941 IOTL, but were pushed off balance by too early a war and mismanagement by Goering and the Nazis, as well as the early death of their penultimate professional Wever, whose team of professionals were 'fired' from their General Staff positions after his death, preventing the balanced air force from being properly carried out.

Without Goering and the Nazis the Luftwaffe would be what Wever (who may not actually end up as Luftwaffe CoS here, as Wilberg would not be pushed out for being half Jewish) and Wilberg had intended.

Wiking, I don't doubt your opinion regarding strategic thinking in German aviation. My point was that the only way a non-Nazi Germany could rearm and not spark a new war with Britain and France would be if this was complimentary to Allied strategic goals and not threatening. No matter how many times you call a long-range bomber a "Ural Bomber" the British and French (having experience Germany's early exeperients with strategic bombing in WW1) would see the handwriting on the wall. My theory is that Germany would self-impose this limitation on itself in order to allow it to grow the largest and most modern airforce they could. They might do design studies and, as I suggested, develop multipurpose multi-engined transports that could be modified to serve as bombers, but I don't think they would actually establish a stratigic air arm.

Michel Van said:

Depends if who menace the Weimar government and if they respect the Versailles Treaty ?

if Weimar government respect the Versailles Treaty,
Navy: 6 Battleships with 10000 ton max, 6 cruisers 6000 ton max, 12 destroyers 800 tons max, 12 torpedos boats 200 tons max. NO subs.
Army: max 100000 men, No Tanks, NO armored cars, NO artillery and restriction on production of machine guns.
Air force: NO armed Aircraft

Click to expand...

IIRC the Weimar government was using all sorts of shenanigans to get around the Versailles Treaty: large reserve corps, tank training in the USSR, etc.

zoomar said:

Wiking, I don't doubt your opinion regarding strategic thinking in German aviation. My point was that the only way a non-Nazi Germany could rearm and not spark a new war with Britain and France would be if this was complimentary to Allied strategic goals and not threatening. No matter how many times you call a long-range bomber a "Ural Bomber" the British and French (having experience Germany's early exeperients with strategic bombing in WW1) would see the handwriting on the wall. My theory is that Germany would self-impose this limitation on itself in order to allow it to grow the largest and most modern airforce they could.

Click to expand...

I don't think that a non-Nazi Germany after 1932 would be non-confrontational. Strategic bombing gives Germany the muscle to achieve its political goals, such as remilitarizing the Rheinland, casting off Versailles, annexing Austria. We can debate what would be the best way for Germany to do so, but given the character of the likely non-Nazi players in German politics like von Schleicher, I think they will follow to a point the policy of Hitler in breaking the political shackles places on Germany.

One of the key components to getting France and Britain to back down on things like abandoning Versailles and standing down when the Rheinland was remilitarized was the 'Risiko Luftwaffe' (Risk Air Force), which was a doctrine developed in 1933-4 by Dr. Robert Knauss that stated a strategic force of bombers was necessary to provide military cover for a strong foreign policy, as it would open up an opposing power to bombing of their cities and factories. It was a deterrent force that functioned as the original 'nuclear bomb' in European international relations. With it the Germans could push back constraints imposed by the Allies while still rearming and expanding, as they were then forced to weigh the cost of standing up to German advancement with the cost of letting the German government get their way. It means that the Allies have consequences to opposing the German revisionism, which without the 'Risk Luftwaffe' they have no reason not to prevent German revisionism.

Historically the improvised bombers revealed in 1935 were enough of a deterrent to the Allies to allow Hitler to get away with tearing up the treaty of Versailles, which will be needed here, otherwise the Allies have no reason to revise anything. A muscular foreign policy backed up by some military force is critical in leveraging the Allies into allowing for revision; without that muscle France can confidently threaten or act against Germany for asking or attempting anything without Britain or any ally at all, as Germany without clandestine rearmament in violation of the treaty will not the means to stop France, nor will anyone stop France from acting against Germany, least of all Britain.

http://books.google.com/books?id=Xr...CDkQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=risk luftwaffe&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=j8...wQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=risiko luftwaffe&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=4y...oQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=risiko luftwaffe&f=false

wiking said:

I don't think that a non-Nazi Germany after 1932 would be non-confrontational. Strategic bombing gives Germany the muscle to achieve its political goals, such as remilitarizing the Rheinland, casting off Versailles, annexing Austria. We can debate what would be the best way for Germany to do so, but given the character of the likely non-Nazi players in German politics like von Schleicher, I think they will follow to a point the policy of Hitler in breaking the political shackles places on Germany.

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The we can disagree on whether this would have been the best course. If you are correct, then I suspect a war with the western allies would come about anyway and Germany would probably not be any better prepared to win in the long run than it was in OTL. Also, say what you will about the Nazis and their...um...unique morality, Hitlerism was an immensly popular mass movement. An "ordinary" authoritarian Germany led by the old guard might not have the cojones to pull the stunts Hitler got away with - both domestically and in international relationships.

zoomar said:

The we can disagree on whether this would have been the best course. If you are correct, then I suspect a war with the western allies would come about anyway and Germany would probably not be any better prepared to win in the long run than it was in OTL. Also, say what you will about the Nazis and their...um...unique morality, Hitlerism was an immensly popular mass movement. An "ordinary" authoritarian Germany led by the old guard might not have the cojones to pull the stunts Hitler got away with - both domestically and in international relationships.

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Do you think that the Allies, specifically France, would have revised Versailles without Germany being able to push things forward militarily? Germany had no leverage that I'm aware of on France and France was more than willing to push Germany around except after they developed a deterrent capability.

From a German government's point of view in these times rearmament was necessary. Once you had France. They were the arch enemy. France was allied with both Poland and Czechoslovakia. Especially with Poland Germany had severe problems. Not to be in danger of an attack by these countries, we can long discuss, how realistic that was, but that was not known by the Germans, too. Thus from any logical German point of view they needed to rearm. We should also keep in mind that the Entente was also not willing to disarm in 1932...

So how would the armed forces look like:

Army: Likely a smaller army but with greater reserves than OTL

Navy: Having equality with France would be a sufficient base. So an Anglo-German agreement would likely come as well.

Air force: A much more balanced air force than OTL.

Tyr Anazasi said:

Navy: Having equality with France would be a sufficient base. So an Anglo-German agreement would likely come as well.

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Does Germany really need more than a coastal defense force backed up by mines and land based naval air power?

deathscompanion1 said:

I believe that the Weimar government would eventually built up the armed forces wether they would start a war depends on who's in power at the time.

Without the Nazis what would a rebuilt German military look like in the 40's-50's?

Click to expand...

Not addressing the military specifically, but

Holding Out for a Hero: Gustav Stresemann Survives ( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 ... Last Page) Faeelin

possibly
AHC: Waimar Germany Survives And Stabilizes ( 1 2)
eliphas8

AH Challenge: The Weimar Republic Survives TL ( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 ... Last Page) Glen

Einigkeit: The Weimar Republic ( 1 2 3)
JJohnson

Dathi THorfinnsson said:

Very helpful snip.

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Thank you I'll have to look through them later.

There seems to be different opinions here but they all seem plausible and actually seem more realistic than OTL.

Just an idea but could Germany and Poland reach an accord at some point?

The Nazis tried and a more moderate regime might have better luck.

deathscompanion1 said:

Thank you I'll have to look through them later.

There seems to be different opinions here but they all seem plausible and actually seem more realistic than OTL.

Just an idea but could Germany and Poland reach an accord at some point?

The Nazis tried and a more moderate regime might have better luck.

Click to expand...

The vast majority of what Germany claimed, was majority Polish, the only serious enclave of Germans in the area outside of the immediate border between Germany and Poland was East Prussia and Danzig.

It would be stretching it for the Poles to give the Germans unrestricted transit rights via the Polish Corridor, the Polish Corridor itself would be signing Polish land inhabited mostly by Poles to German rule, which in Poland's already rather chaotic interwar environment would have been politically unacceptable.