WI: Someone actually wins the Thirty years war

[Emperor Constantine]

So the thirty years war lasted from 1618 to 1648 and was ended by the Peace of Westphalia. In the peace treaty France and Sweden got the lions share of territories, therefore "winning" the war. My question is what if either the Catholics (ex Spain, Austria and the Catholic League) or the protestants (ex Sweden, Denmark, Netherlands and the Protestant Union) decisively win the war. Maybe by the protestants capturing Vienna or the Catholics capturing Berlin, Amsterdam and maybe invading Sweden itself. What would Europe look like?

[ed_montague]

There'd be a hell of a lot more (religious denomination) and a hell of a lot less (religious denomination).

[von Adler]

Gustav II Adolf was hinting at declaring himself protestant Emperor and protector of all protestant states before his death at Lützen 1632. Sweden winning decisively probably means it will attack Denmark right after to force it into a permanent weaker state compared to Sweden.

[cimon]

Originally Posted by Emperor Constantine

So the thirty years war lasted from 1618 to 1648 and was ended by the Peace of Westphalia. In the peace treaty France and Sweden got the lions share of territories, therefore "winning" the war. My question is what if either the Catholics (ex Spain, Austria and the Catholic League) or the protestants (ex Sweden, Denmark, Netherlands and the Protestant Union) decisively win the war. Maybe by the protestants capturing Vienna or the Catholics capturing Berlin, Amsterdam and maybe invading Sweden itself. What would Europe look like?

The war started as a religious war and turned towards the end very political, highlighting the antagonism between the house of Valois and the Hapsburgs,otherwise Arman du Plessis Cardinal Duke du Richelieu would not have done the unthinkable:to ally with a Protestant power,him representing the most Catholic State in Europe.

[Emperor Constantine]

Originally Posted by cimon

The war started as a religious war and turned towards the end very political, highlighting the antagonism between the house of Valois and the Hapsburgs,otherwise Arman du Plessis Cardinal Duke du Richelieu would not have done the unthinkable:to ally with a Protestant power,him representing the most Catholic State in Europe.

I think you mean the House of Bourbon, France in the early to mid 1600's seemed to care more about beating the Habsburgs than the supremacy of Catholicism abroad.

[Winston Smith]

Originally Posted by von Adler

Gustav II Adolf was hinting at declaring himself protestant Emperor and protector of all protestant states before his death at Lützen 1632. Sweden winning decisively probably means it will attack Denmark right after to force it into a permanent weaker state compared to Sweden.

I keep on hearing this, yet I've never seen an actual source for it.

[Emperor Constantine]

Originally Posted by Winston Smith

I keep on hearing this, yet I've never seen an actual source for it.

I have a book on his daughter Christina and it mentioned that he wanted to establish a council of protestant Princes to run the Holy Roman Empire, the Corpus Evangelicorum, with King Gustavus as President.

[Janprimus]

I guess that there were regional winners, but no real overall winners. For instance the Habsburgs were victorious in Bohemia, but overall ended more in a stalemate.

[Emperor Constantine]

Originally Posted by Janprimus

I guess that there were regional winners, but no real overall winners. For instance the Habsburgs were victorious in Bohemia, but overall ended more in a stalemate.

I'd say the Austrian Habsburgs really lost the war. The peace of Westphalia essentially decentralized the Holy Roman Empire, destroyed Germany for the next 20 years and gave both of their rivals huge gains. ( France and Sweden)

[The Dude Bro]

The Protestants (and their Catholic friend France) won the Thirty Years War, so this question is kinda irrelevant. Yes, the Protestants, both as individual states and as a bloc as a whole, didn't achieve all their aims, but we tend to forget on this site that states rarely achieve all of their war aims in a given war. However, the effects of the Thirty Years War are kinds obvious. In Germany, it turned the Holy Roman Empire from merely moribund and in need of serious reform to something not even the greatest and most astute ruler could save. By doing so, it seriously cut down the power of the Austrian Hapsburgs and shifted power in Europe towards the French and to a lesser extent the Swedes. Meanwhile the war drove the final nail into the coffin for the Spanish Hapsburgs, turning them from a dynasty that had their role in every flashpoint in Europe to a joke that would die out with the most inbred person in all of history possibly.

[Emperor Constantine]

Originally Posted by The Dude Bro

The Protestants (and their Catholic friend France) won the Thirty Years War, so this question is kinda irrelevant. Yes, the Protestants, both as individual states and as a bloc as a whole, didn't achieve all their aims, but we tend to forget on this site that states rarely achieve all of their war aims in a given war. However, the effects of the Thirty Years War are kinds obvious. In Germany, it turned the Holy Roman Empire from merely moribund and in need of serious reform to something not even the greatest and most astute ruler could save. By doing so, it seriously cut down the power of the Austrian Hapsburgs and shifted power in Europe towards the French and to a lesser extent the Swedes. Meanwhile the war drove the final nail into the coffin for the Spanish Hapsburgs, turning them from a dynasty that had their role in every flashpoint in Europe to a joke that would die out with the most inbred person in all of history possibly.

So maybe I should change my question to what if the Catholics, or more specifically The Austrian Habsburgs, won the Thirty Years War?
I mean I can't really see Spain reconquering the Netherlands, that was their main objection after all.

[Snake Featherston]

If the Habsburgs win, state sovereignty obviously is different in a legal sense from OTL, while Europe sees the rise of something like a territorially unified, Catholic, unified German Empire several centuries earlier.

[cimon]

Originally Posted by Emperor Constantine

I think you mean the House of Bourbon, France in the early to mid 1600's seemed to care more about beating the Habsburgs than the supremacy of Catholicism abroad.

Hapsburg and French antagonism is an early European phaenomenon for the supremacy in Europe;Germany was a grey region politically,surrounded in two directions by protestant powers and dominated by the Hapsburgs until then;Richelieu saw the war in Germany as a perfect opportunity to break the stranglehold that Charles V had created against France during the reign of Francis I and the timing was excellent.

[cimon]

Originally Posted by Snake Featherston

If the Habsburgs win, state sovereignty obviously is different in a legal sense from OTL, while Europe sees the rise of something like a territorially unified, Catholic, unified German Empire several centuries earlier.

Governed by Madrid....

[Xgentis]

Originally Posted by Emperor Constantine

I think you mean the House of Bourbon, France in the early to mid 1600's seemed to care more about beating the Habsburgs than the supremacy of Catholicism abroad.

It make sence they wanted to break the Habsburgs encirclement of France wich was considered and rightly so as a mortal threat.

[cimon]

Originally Posted by Emperor Constantine

I think you mean the House of Bourbon, France in the early to mid 1600's seemed to care more about beating the Habsburgs than the supremacy of Catholicism abroad.

No,I meant Valois;the antagonism started at that time,naturally at the time of the Thirty Years War we have the Bourbons in France.

[Fredrick II Barbarossa]

The ebst way for the catholics to have a chance of winning is if Wallenstein was not assasinated and sacked. I mean come on how dumb of a move was that on part of the HRE. Seriously Wallenstein was like the only real general Austria had that could compare with COnde, Turenne, GUstavus, and the other top leaders. IMO had the HRE listened to Walllenstein it would have been very much easier for the HRE to win the war because of Wallensteins plans. BEst point would be before his first sacking the HRE listens to Wallenstiens plans about what to do with the defeated German princes before French intervention. AKA the time when Denmark-Norway and the german states got their behinds handed to them by the HRE.

[cimon]

Originally Posted by Fredrick II Barbarossa

The ebst way for the catholics to have a chance of winning is if Wallenstein was not assasinated and sacked. I mean come on how dumb of a move was that on part of the HRE. Seriously Wallenstein was like the only real general Austria had that could compare with COnde, Turenne, GUstavus, and the other top leaders. IMO had the HRE listened to Walllenstein it would have been very much easier for the HRE to win the war because of Wallensteins plans. BEst point would be before his first sacking the HRE listens to Wallenstiens plans about what to do with the defeated German princes before French intervention. AKA the time when Denmark-Norway and the german states got their behinds handed to them by the HRE.

Very astute FB,and of course correct.apart from being the greatest strategist(not tactician) in the Thirty Years War(after Vicompte de Turenne of course) he was the first to think about Pangermanism and he was distressed with what was happening in Germany due to the war and he was taking steps to negotiate with Protestant rulers for a stop to the systematic destruction of Germany and the the creation of the essentials for a lasting peace.Unfortunately he was accused of treason....
But if we had an early unified Germany then England...might find some...use for Napoleon if he was bend on burning Berlin.
I think that the parametres of powerpolitics and realpolitic would be totally different!-of course the great danger of world wars would be looming much earlier...

[Grand Prince Paul II.]

Originally Posted by Emperor Constantine

I'd say the Austrian Habsburgs really lost the war.

Not really. They regained the Bohemian Crown and most of its Lands and secured their status as ruling house of Germany.

Originally Posted by Emperor Constantine

The peace of Westphalia essentially decentralized the Holy Roman Empire,

Not true, pre-war HRRGN was already decentralized.
The peace of Westphalia legalized most of the Christian diversity in Germany, it did not destroy the political structure of the HRRGN.

Originally Posted by The Dude Bro

The Protestants (and their Catholic friend France) won the Thirty Years War,

You forgot Bavaria whose ruler gained the electoral title and the Upper Palatinate of the defeated Elector of the Palatinate.

[Space Oddity]

Originally Posted by The Dude Bro

The Protestants (and their Catholic friend France) won the Thirty Years War, so this question is kinda irrelevant. Yes, the Protestants, both as individual states and as a bloc as a whole, didn't achieve all their aims, but we tend to forget on this site that states rarely achieve all of their war aims in a given war. However, the effects of the Thirty Years War are kinds obvious. In Germany, it turned the Holy Roman Empire from merely moribund and in need of serious reform to something not even the greatest and most astute ruler could save. By doing so, it seriously cut down the power of the Austrian Hapsburgs and shifted power in Europe towards the French and to a lesser extent the Swedes. Meanwhile the war drove the final nail into the coffin for the Spanish Hapsburgs, turning them from a dynasty that had their role in every flashpoint in Europe to a joke that would die out with the most inbred person in all of history possibly.

Yes, the Protestants sure won that war. They won it so much that Hungary, Bohemia, and the south of Germany became Catholic. And this stunning victory so weakened the Habsburgs that the Emperor followed it up with the most supine display of weakness ever--liberating the rest of Hungary from the Turk.

I'll keep it short--the 19th century spin on German history was largely written to flatter... a certain state, and suggest its historical rise was an inevitable triumph. It thus tends to simplify matters.