WI U-203 had sank USS Texas

[Adler17]

1941

U-203 encountered the US battleship USS Texas and its destroyer screen on Neutrality Patrol about 800 miles south-southeast of Iceland. The U-boat followed the ship for over 20 hours and Mützelburg identified her clearly. He even tried to get in attack position because the ships were moving eastwards into the declared blockade area around Britain, but never came into firing range and stopped chasing them as they turned around.

From: Uboat.net

U-203 encountered USS Texas on June 19th. So what if USS Texas did not turn and moved into the blockade area and U-203 sank her? The USA were already fighting a kind of undeclared war against Germany. So what now?

Adler

[Devolved]

Originally Posted by Adler17

From: Uboat.net

U-203 encountered USS Texas on June 19th. So what if USS Texas did not turn and moved into the blockade area and U-203 sank her? The USA were already fighting a kind of undeclared war against Germany. So what now?

Adler

I wasn't aware of this one and if true then what a lost opportunity!

It would be great for everyone except the Germans and of course sailors on the USS Texas.

America would have to come into the war if A BATTLESHIP was torpedoed and sunk. They could overlook a destroyer or two but not the USS Texas. The vote for war would be less than for Pearl Harbor but it would be enough. It also comes 3 days before Barbarossa. What does Hitler do then?

A rather amusing problem I think.The U boat captain is either greeted as a hero on his return or gets a firing squad!

[corditeman]

...Escort force would probably sink the submarine.

Diplodisaster for Germany - whether immediate US declaration of war is unclear because Wilson was a wuss.

Lloyd-George complained that at Versailles he had Jesus Christ (Wilson) on one side of him and the Devil (Clemenceau) on the other. No wonder the Treaty of Versailles was such a mess...

[Devolved]

Originally Posted by corditeman

...Escort force would probably sink the submarine.

Diplodisaster for Germany - whether immediate US declaration of war is unclear because Wilson was a wuss.

Lloyd-George complained that at Versailles he had Jesus Christ (Wilson) on one side of him and the Devil (Clemenceau) on the other. No wonder the Treaty of Versailles was such a mess...

Wrong war.

[MattII]

Roosevelt gets his casus belli, and the Pacific War is possibly averted after Japan realises that the the US aren't going to cry mother over losing battleships, they're going to fight even more fiercely.

[Shaby]

Originally Posted by MattII

Roosevelt gets his casus belli, and the Pacific War is possibly averted after Japan realises that the the US aren't going to cry mother over losing battleships, they're going to fight even more fiercely.

I do not think it would alter that much of Japanese outlook. They wagered their victory more on territorial gains and setting up impenetrable defensive barrier than on sinking fleet units. To them the latter was just a means to get to the former. They might even get encouraged by the fact that US attention is getting focused on Atlantic.

Provided U-Boat captain being so dimwit as to not recognize a US ship when he saw one, then all sorts of unpleasant things will ensue. Unpleasant that is, for Germany. Overall, I do not see US being able to do anything much earlier than it actually did OTL. Additional 5 months of full scale preparation might bring D-Day in May '44. Of course weather permitting. Maybe Africa gets secured before '42 runs out. All of those in itself welcome but not overall game changing differences.

[MattII]

If Operation Torch goes through early, the Japanese might be given cause to think again, after all, it will prove that the US can do en masse amphibious invasions.

[Devolved]

June 1941 is a game changer. A mass mobilization in June/July 1941 instead of December 1941/Jan '42 brings a large US army to Europe months earlier than OTL. It would certainly mean that the Americans will get a D Day in 1943 which is closer to what they really wanted OTL.

[MattII]

IMO this is deserving on a proper ATL, and I just wish I was up to writing one.

[Devolved]

Originally Posted by MattII

IMO this is deserving on a proper ATL, and I just wish I was up to writing one.

Based on past threads I don't think the OP will want to write a timeline in which the Americans enter the war just 3 days before Barbarossa and Germany is defeated by mid 1944.

[MattII]

Hm, come to think about it, U-203 sinking USS Texas isn't that plausible IMO, it's be something a bit more like U-203 shadows the battlegroup containing USS Texas. The battlegroup considers the action hostile, and attacks, quickly sinking U-203, but not quickly enough that it can't get a message off. Hitler hears the message, and incensed, declares war on the US against the advice of his generals.

[thevaliant]

Originally Posted by Devolved

Based on past threads I don't think the OP will want to write a timeline in which the Americans enter the war just 3 days before Barbarossa and Germany is defeated by mid 1944.

Agreed .

That reminds me. I really really must read Happy and Glorious. I keep getting distracted by other things (like work).

[corditeman]

Sorry, Devolved - Great War fixation....

[HMS Warspite]

Originally Posted by MattII

Hm, come to think about it, U-203 sinking USS Texas isn't that plausible IMO, it's be something a bit more like U-203 shadows the battlegroup containing USS Texas. The battlegroup considers the action hostile, and attacks, quickly sinking U-203, but not quickly enough that it can't get a message off. Hitler hears the message, and incensed, declares war on the US against the advice of his generals.

U-203 could easily avoid the US DD screen, as in early 1941, USN ships were completely illequipped and trained to combat submarines and needed time to learn how to do things from their future British Allies first. Secodnly, DD's are not optimised for ASW, being more multi purpose ships in a sort of warfare asking for specialised ASW vessels, such as the Loch class Frigates.

By the way, Operation Barbarossa was a huge operation, demanding months, or even years of planning, not easily postponed in as few as three days. Even if the Germans wanted it, they simply lacked time to postpone the attack on Russia. Things had already set in motion beyond the point of no return.

[Decatur]

German submarine U-203 sinks USS Texas. USA promptly declares war on Germany. Invasion of USSR goes as planned, since it is too far along to delay (and Hitler expects he can knock the Soviets out of the war before the USA can significantly intervene).

Britons are stunned at film footage of Winston Churchill dancing a jig when he learns that both USA and USSR are his new allies.

A few months later, Japan takes advantage of the international situation to launch attacks on US, British, and Dutch colonies in the Far East.

[metastasis_d]

I don't have much understanding of the alliance between Germany and Japan. Would Japan declare war immediately after a US/German declaration, like Germany did OTL after the US declared in December?

[sloreck]

The Japanese-German Alliance was defensive. In this scenario, since Germany "attacked" the USA Japan is not obligated to declare war. OTL Since the Japanese attacked the USA Germany was not obligated to declare war in December, 1941 - but due to Hitler's (usual) idiocy they did. The "defensive" clause was how the Japanese stayed out of the Germany-USSR business...Soviet ships carrying Lend-Lease from US Pacific ports sailed past Japan on the way to Vladivostok where the goods would be shipped east on the Trans-Siberian RR.

[BlairWitch749]

this is an interesting question to ponder and worthy ah fodder

there was a similar incident in feb 1941 when a u-boat accidently got inside the screen of the USS Yorktown when she was on a neutrality patrol

there could have been a shooting incident one way or the other that could have wound up with yorktown being torpedoed

[Wet Coast]

Originally Posted by sloreck

The Japanese-German Alliance was defensive. In this scenario, since Germany "attacked" the USA Japan is not obligated to declare war. OTL Since the Japanese attacked the USA Germany was not obligated to declare war in December, 1941 - but due to Hitler's (usual) idiocy they did. The "defensive" clause was how the Japanese stayed out of the Germany-USSR business...Soviet ships carrying Lend-Lease from US Pacific ports sailed past Japan on the way to Vladivostok where the goods would be shipped east on the Trans-Siberian RR.

Hitlers decalaration of war on the US was not as idiotic as it may appear. Once the US and the UK were allies in a war against Japan the US would no longer be constrained by neutrality rules or the US Congress when escorting ships to the UK.

Germany faced its submarine campaign being bypassed and the UK becoming much stronger. Hitler gambled that he could knock Russia out of the war and then either negotiate or make Europe impregnable before the US became a factor, especially if the US was intially preoccupied with Japan as would seem likely after Pearl Harbor.

[MattII]

Originally Posted by HMS Warspite

U-203 could easily avoid the US DD screen, as in early 1941, USN ships were completely illequipped and trained to combat submarines and needed time to learn how to do things from their future British Allies first. Secodnly, DD's are not optimised for ASW, being more multi purpose ships in a sort of warfare asking for specialised ASW vessels, such as the Loch class Frigates.

Okay then, WTF would U-203 fire on the Texas, knowing it would lead to war?