Two Jewish State

After the death of king solomon, the kingdom of israel split into the more cosmopolitan northern kingdom (Israel) and the religious southern kingdom (Judea). What if it happens again? In this case the rift between secular and religious jews widens, and many secular jew are reluctant to die for the goals of the religious right. Israel could create the state Judea from its own territory bordering west bank or maybe gaza. Israel would lobby for Judea's recognition from UN, which I don't think is impossible since it is made up of her own territory. Israel also would offer to withdraw from west bank (except eastern jerusalem) in return for Judea's recognition.Judea would be a true jewish theocracy and it will attractIsrael's orthodox jews who were sick with Israel's secularism. Relation between the two state would be good and Israel will guarantee Judea's border. Judea was created in order to get the heat off Israel so it can concentrate to develop its economy. Most of the funds from the Diaspora would be redirected to Judea. Right after its creation Judea would seize the illegal jewish settlements under the pretext of defending jewish immigrant. it will then expand into the rest of west bank. Since the Judean don't give a damn about world opinion, they would do things most Israelis wouldn't or couldn't do as a liberal democracy. This includes harsh military action against palestinians and expulsion of gentiles from judea. Obviously this would lead the UN to impose sanction against Judea. How will this affect the stability of th mid-east?
 
Judea will make up less than 10 percent of Israel territory. It will then seize the nearby illegal jewish settlements and expel the arabs. According to census, less than a quarter of Israeli population are orthodox, so there will be at least 750000 potential judeans. Add to that another 150000 settlers, we'll have close to a million judeans. Their religious fervor mix with funding from the diaspora and armed with Israeli weapons, they could take on the palestinians. Plus Israel will guarantee its border even if it is expanding. So I don't think it will be suicide, its not as if both states were at war with each other. Since Israel no longer occupy the west bank, arab hatred would be redirected towards Judea. Only that Judea is more willng to harshly deal with palestinian terrorist andwould do anything short of ethnic cleansing to quell palestinian violence.
 
What if the Palestinians converted back to Judaism? The DNA evidence is mounting up that the Palestinians are the original Jews. What if DNA samplers become so cheap (and they are becoming so cheap) that everyone can get their DNA checked for themselves?
If they converted back to Judaism, what is Israel going to do about voting rights? The whole point of Israel's national service apartheid is to carefully separate the Palestinians from the Jewish welfare state by only giving money to people who served in the armed forces, or to school children who's parents served in the armed forces. If the Palestinians can vote they can get rid of that requirement. Or alternatively they could serve in the armed forces.
But the armed forces would no longer have an enemy, so who would need them?
 
First, you cannot convert to Judaism as easily as to Christianity, Islam or Buddhism. You have to study the Torah before, are questioned whether you seriously want to do that and why. I don't think the Jews would allow the pals to do so, since they can probably add two and two together and find out it's just a trick. DNA doesn't help either, since the Jewish laws specify that you're only Jewish (except the few converted ones), if your _mother_ (and her mother, and so on) is Jewish. And besides of that, Muslims consider converting to another religion as a mortal sin and a crime and wouldn't allow it, even if their plan could be successful, which it isn't.
 
Max Sinister said:
First, you cannot convert to Judaism as easily as to Christianity, Islam or Buddhism. You have to study the Torah before, are questioned whether you seriously want to do that and why. I don't think the Jews would allow the pals to do so, since they can probably add two and two together and find out it's just a trick. DNA doesn't help either, since the Jewish laws specify that you're only Jewish (except the few converted ones), if your _mother_ (and her mother, and so on) is Jewish. And besides of that, Muslims consider converting to another religion as a mortal sin and a crime and wouldn't allow it, even if their plan could be successful, which it isn't.
The Israeli constitution could be ignored by the Israeli courts, of course. It has been in the past.
And what makes you think that your DNA is conspiring against you? Mitochondrial DNA is only inheirited from the mother, and her mother, and her mother...
As for what the Moslems think about it, I doubt that the twelve million Israelis would care any more than the six million Israelis would care.
And finally, don't you think that the establishment and survival of Israel is God sending a message? Some people do, and if there are more of them than the others...then it isn't a trick.
I mean, what do you need? God rolling back the clouds and telling the Palestinians "NOW are you convinced that you should return to the True Faith?" in Hebrew? Hell, that would do it for me!
 
Max Sinister said:
Huh? WTH? I remember about having read something that we inherit half of our genes by each parent...
Mitochondrial DNA is only inheirited from your mother. Google it.
Y chromosome DNA is only inheirited from your father. Google it.
So we can trace motherlines back about 140,000 years. Ditto fatherlines to about 70,000 years.
The rest of your genes get swapped around all the time. Riflips and like that. Google that, too, if you are curious.
 

The Saint

Banned
There has always been a trickle of converts allowed to Judaism.

But when the Jews are openly ascendant, it's clamped down on, because their motives are suspected as not being sincere: "In the days of the Messiah converts will not be accepted, just as converts were not accepted in the days of David and the days of Solomon" (Talmud Avoda Zara 3).
 
I don't think Judaism has much to do with any genes. Jews from all over the world pretty much adapted to the looks of the people they lived together with, implying a lot of intermarriage or at least mixing, as the number of converts was rather low. The same mixing should logically be true for the people in the places they were at, especially considering converts.

Additionally, it would be difficult to reduce Judaism to the few people fleeing Egypt and founding Israel. All the monotheist groups (tribes, cities...) sharing the same basic believes in and around the area should also be included, especially as some of them became "completely" Jewish when competition between different religions forced to take sides (Khazaria). That would include Slavs, Caucasians, Turk people, Arabs, and Egyptians. The Celts were pretty mobile at the time, so that influence can also safely be assumed. And since the people started to come to Israel from all over the world, German and African "blood" is also included. Pretty much the same mixing is true for basically all people on the planet, btw. - except a few isolated people like the Aboriginies. Sure one might be able to find genes that appear more often in one group than another - but it'll be difficult to find Genes which exclusively exist in nearly every member of one group - and most of the ones carrying such "markers" sure also have more common genes, or even genes usually appearing more in other groups.

As for the splitting up: I'm still a supporter of a united Israel including different orthodox and moderate states of both confessions, and secular states. It would include the West Bank. Looking at a map, I'd probably make the north (including Haifa), the South, and Jerusalem secular and the West Bank mostly Muslim (south moderate, north conservative). The remaining west coast is divided in a moderate south and an orthodox north. This way, orthodox Muslims and Jews share a border, but according to my experiences with religious fundamentalists, they'll get along very well. To match opinions with geography, I'd declare my intentions and encourage the people to use job changes, home changes, and the likes to choose also by their believes. I'd also sort immigrants accordingly, put ex-soldiers, ex-inmates and other suitable people in the areas of their choice, relocate police, administrative staff and so on accordingly, and so on. People are also encouraged to look for good spots for new businesses or for new jobs in their preferred area first. Sizes of states might change over time according to population, so that popular states grow and unpopular states shrink. But only when this is possible without people feeling forced to move - areas with indifferent or no people, areas where the people already created according facts by moving there, and so on. I'd also use this "everyone gets the state he likes the most" approach to get more immigrants from Arab countries, to have more Palestinians return, and so on - I'd say everyone advocating democracy, human rights, and so on, tolerating Judaism, identifying with Israel, and speaking Hebrew is sufficiently integrated to allow growth without loosing the essential identity.
 
The kurds are also genetically close to Jews.

As for the splitting up: I'm still a supporter of a united Israel including different orthodox and moderate states of both confessions, and secular states. It would include the West Bank. Looking at a map, I'd probably make the north (including Haifa), the South, and Jerusalem secular and the West Bank mostly Muslim (south moderate, north conservative). The remaining west coast is divided in a moderate south and an orthodox north. This way, orthodox Muslims and Jews share a border, but according to my experiences with religious fundamentalists, they'll get along very well. To match opinions with geography, I'd declare my intentions and encourage the people to use job changes, home changes, and the likes to choose also by their believes. I'd also sort immigrants accordingly, put ex-soldiers, ex-inmates and other suitable people in the areas of their choice, relocate police, administrative staff and so on accordingly, and so on. People are also encouraged to look for good spots for new businesses or for new jobs in their preferred area first. Sizes of states might change over time according to population, so that popular states grow and unpopular states shrink. But only when this is possible without people feeling forced to move - areas with indifferent or no people, areas where the people already created according facts by moving there, and so on. I'd also use this "everyone gets the state he likes the most" approach to get more immigrants from Arab countries, to have more Palestinians return, and so on - I'd say everyone advocating democracy, human rights, and so on, tolerating Judaism, identifying with Israel, and speaking Hebrew is sufficiently integrated to allow growth without loosing the essential identity.
Are these states politically independant or do they form some sort of confederation like switzerland? Is it ok if you could provide us with a map?
 
Well, since the Jews and Arabs are both Semitic people, it wouldn't be a surprise if we found out that they are similar genetically. And since the one or other Jew has converted since Islam came, some Arabs may have Jewish foremothers. I don't know what the Jewish laws say about such a case, i.e. whether you're considered Jewish if your family is Muslim, but the mother of the mother of your mother was born and raised Jewish before she converted. So or so, the Muslims still won't like it if Muslims convert to Judaism.
 
Here a simple draft of how a "Federal Israel" could look.

I don't know anything about actual divisions, though, or of any religious or other feelings involved - only Israelis themselves (together with the Palestinians) could work out such a reform of the countries structure.

The states have a limited autonomy - maybe less than the Swiss counties, but enough to keep their defining aspects.

A Senate makes sure the states have a say in the law making of the Federation. All states have 2 representatives, the mixed states should usually have one person leaning more towards the Jewish religion and one more towards the Muslim religion - even if they are not necessarily religious.

I changed the South to "Moderate Jews" to reduce bad feelings about such a federation among Jews.

I don't think too highly of classifying people as "Arian" or "Semite". To me, it's more like the extremes existing in the corners of the old world, and the more "averaged out" people towards the middle. I also see more similarities between southern Europeans and Arabs than between "typical" Germans and Indians (even only northern Indians). And the Jews persecuted under this scheme had nothing to do with such classifications - most could only be identified by birth records.

israel_divided.gif
 
S. Amir said:
What about Gaza and Golan Heights?

Isn't Gaza already becoming Egyptian? If not, I'd make it a state. The Golan Heights are simply added to the state there.
 
jolo said:
Isn't Gaza already becoming Egyptian? If not, I'd make it a state. The Golan Heights are simply added to the state there.

Gaza looks like it's becoming a semi-city-state, though the Israelis still control the airspace.
 

CalBear

Moderator
Donor
Monthly Donor
S. Amir said:
After the death of king solomon, the kingdom of israel split into the more cosmopolitan northern kingdom (Israel) and the religious southern kingdom (Judea). What if it happens again? In this case the rift between secular and religious jews widens, and many secular jew are reluctant to die for the goals of the religious right. Israel could create the state Judea from its own territory bordering west bank or maybe gaza. Israel would lobby for Judea's recognition from UN, which I don't think is impossible since it is made up of her own territory. Israel also would offer to withdraw from west bank (except eastern jerusalem) in return for Judea's recognition.Judea would be a true jewish theocracy and it will attractIsrael's orthodox jews who were sick with Israel's secularism. Relation between the two state would be good and Israel will guarantee Judea's border. Judea was created in order to get the heat off Israel so it can concentrate to develop its economy. Most of the funds from the Diaspora would be redirected to Judea. Right after its creation Judea would seize the illegal jewish settlements under the pretext of defending jewish immigrant. it will then expand into the rest of west bank. Since the Judean don't give a damn about world opinion, they would do things most Israelis wouldn't or couldn't do as a liberal democracy. This includes harsh military action against palestinians and expulsion of gentiles from judea. Obviously this would lead the UN to impose sanction against Judea. How will this affect the stability of th mid-east?

Why would anyone believe that the split was anything but a ploy to allow Israel to do what it has always appeared eager to accomplish? Israel has made noises about the West Bank being part of Israel since the '67 war, this would be more of the same.

I'm a big fan if the Israeli state & of their policies in the region, but I would see any such change to be just so much paperwork, with no actual difference in the states. It would be the equivalent to the State of Utah becoming its own religious based country, but still being protected by the U.S. military, and deciding that it would legalize the torture of suspected terrorists, since the U.S. can't legally do it. (PLEASE NO FLAMES! I am not implying that Utah would do such a thing or that the U.S. would allow/endose such an action.) No one would believe that the change was real and the U.S. would still catch the flak for the Human Right's violations. Same deal here.
 
MerryPrankster said:
Gaza looks like it's becoming a semi-city-state, though the Israelis still control the airspace.

In that case, I might even give it some more land in return for land in the West Bank, so that it's easy for any Palestinian who doesn't want to live in an Israeli federation to move there.
 
Top