The White and Lofty: Preliminary Ideas

[WhatIsAUserName]

So I've been fond of the irony that the Xi Xia state, which existed in Northwestern China from 1038 to 1227, would refer to itself as the White and Lofty Great Xia State, despite the fact that it was hemmed in by stronger states and never really that White or Lofty. I've decided to write about a timeline where this is reversed, and the Xi Xia are indeed powerful.

To be honest, much of these ideas will look like I merely replaced the Mongols with Tanguts.

My initial plan would be for Li Yuanhao, who was Jingzong of the Western Xia, to reign longer, and be succeeded by more capable rulers and men. Later, when the Khitan Liao are overthrown by the Jurchens, who were consistently restless, and probably unified under the Wanyan tribe here too, the Jurchens aren't that successful, and the Tanguts of the Xi Xia manage to take most of Liao territory, and then defeat the Northern Song. In real life, the Southern Song came into existence because a Jurchen cavalry unit missed capturing Gaozong of Southern Song by a few minutes. In this world, there will be no Southern Song, just a handful of Chinese successor states in the south, who will be defeated in due time.

Then, the Tanguts would then proceed, in a manner similar to the Mongols in history, to conquer large swaths of Eurasia. Because the Tanguts were devoutly Buddhist, this will have the effect of imposing Buddhism through a much larger area.

So, for some of the butterflies and effects I had in mind: The Khitans in this world won't just flee to Central Asia and create the Kara Khitai. The advance of the Tanguts mean that the Khitans will instead go even further east. I'm thinking of either a Khitan version of the Ottoman Empire centered in Constantinople, or a Khitan Egypt. Next, the Tanguts will take Central Asia, Iran, and Afghanistan. Naysayers might say Islamization has taken too deep of a hold in these areas already. I envision a Buddhist Middle East instead, just for the sake of the butterflies.

A group of Tanguts will later take over most of India, in the same manner that a group of Mongol descendants became the Moghuls and did the same. As for the Jurchens, I'm thinking of them invading and conquering Korea and Japan, and then starting a maritime tradition that will see the Jurchens spread to Taiwan, the Philippines, and maybe even North America. I'm not sure about Europe though. I don't want a Tangut invasion of Russia: the parallels with the Mongols would start to get boring. Perhaps the Tangut invasion creates a wave of migration, and this world sees Naimans, Mongols, or Tatars invading Russia and forming their own states anyways. I'm not sure about the Eastern Roman Empire. However, I do plan to have the Tanguts weaken the position of the neighboring Muslim states, and perhaps the Crusader States survive longer, maybe even till the present day. Europe, more dedicated to Middle Eastern involvement, would turn out differently, but I'm not sure how. For the sake of divergence, I'm thinking of England having more of a European continental presence with a different Hundred Years' War.

A few last butterflies I had in mind: it's not too late for the Reconquista to fail, and it's still possible for Islam to spread into places that it never really reached historically. I'm thinking of the Indochina Peninsula, Thailand, and Burma, and maybe the New World. Otherwise, it seems the Muslim world is unreasonably unfortunate in this world.

The reason I post so much about an idea that I'm not really sure about, is because I'm thinking of making a miniature timeline, not some magnum opus, so don't expect LTTW or DoD. I'd also like to ask for your thoughts, and also for people who'd like to collaborate with me, because there are people here who are much more knowledgeable about history than I am.

So, any thoughts? I can already imagine the tag line: Muslim Vietnam? Khitan Egypt? Jurchen California? Why not try "The White and Lofty?"

[Mirza Khan]

Khitan Persia seems much more likely to me-Egypt, due to its geography, would be very difficult for a steppe army like the Khitans to conquer. And a quick wiki check says Kara-Khitan was Buddhist-this is going to cause major problems if they try to rule over Egypt, Persia, Turkey, or anywhere else Muslim. Islamic steppe dynasties could easily integrate local strongmen and other Islamic nomads into their power structure, but a strongly Buddhist empire is going to be seen as illigetimate by its Muslim subjects, who would likely turn against it as soon as it ran into serious trouble. The only real way I see it lasting is if it either converts to Islam or brings enough Buddhist migrants from its homeland to form its own power base.

Did Buddhism have much of its own missionary tradition? How likely would it be for a long-lived Khitan state in, say, Persia to make a serious effort to convert its Muslim subjects?

[WhatIsAUserName]

Originally Posted by Mirza Khan

Khitan Persia seems much more likely to me-Egypt, due to its geography, would be very difficult for a steppe army like the Khitans to conquer. And a quick wiki check says Kara-Khitan was Buddhist-this is going to cause major problems if they try to rule over Egypt, Persia, Turkey, or anywhere else Muslim. Islamic steppe dynasties could easily integrate local strongmen and other Islamic nomads into their power structure, but a strongly Buddhist empire is going to be seen as illigetimate by its Muslim subjects, who would likely turn against it as soon as it ran into serious trouble. The only real way I see it lasting is if it either converts to Islam or brings enough Buddhist migrants from its homeland to form its own power base.

Did Buddhism have much of its own missionary tradition? How likely would it be for a long-lived Khitan state in, say, Persia to make a serious effort to convert its Muslim subjects?

Well, I was thinking of making Persia ruled by Tangut Buddhists, and my only real goal was to get the Khitans some place where they could form their own strong state. It doesn't have to last a long time. Because Persia in this world would be taken over by Tanguts, that only left me Syria, Turkey, and Egypt. I also have a mental image of Khitan Mamluks who take over Egypt or Syria as well. Depending on what I decide to happen to the Eastern Roman Empire, I think I'll leave it for now with Khitans in Egypt or Syria.

Buddhism did have a missionary tradition, but it varied at times, but under the Mongols in the early Il-Khan period, Buddhism did have a presence in Persia. In real life, a Muslim Mongol ruler ended that, but in this world, the Tanguts remain firmly Buddhist, while also supporting Christians and Jews. It might be plausible for a Buddhist Tangut military caste to rule over the Muslim majority until this change in demographic occurs. Over time, most of the Persians of this world will convert to Buddhism, first under the Tanguts, and then maybe under another set of steppe invaders. Alternatively, because the Khitans of the Kara-Khitai ruled over Muslim Central Asia, I think maybe they can "soften up" the Middle East for Buddhism by spreading it as well. To be honest, I don't think the Kara-Khitai spread Buddhism in Central Asia that much, but then again, this is an alternate world, one where the Khitans and Tanguts spread Buddhism forcefully.

[WhatIsAUserName]

Semi-bump, and just a few more ideas I had in mind and some questions I'd like to ask for my timeline:

• The point of divergence is probably before 1048. Li Yuanhao is more successful against the Song Dynasty. His son thus doesn't assassinate him, and the newly-formed Xia Dynasty remains more stable.
• The butterfly effect means that, if the Fatimids hold on to Egypt instead of a strong Ayyubid Sultanate, then perhaps my idea of a Khitan Egypt would be more possible if the migrating Khitans were to invade Egypt.
• Consequently, if there are no Ayyubids in this world, and the Seljuqs and Anatolian Muslim states are taken over by Buddhist nomads instead, then I can have the crusader states surviving to the present-day, or at least longer.
• Perhaps the Almoravids can remain longer too, simply because of butterflies, but I'm not sure if it's reasonable to butterfly away the rest of the Reconquista and have a Muslim southern Spain.
• Would it be possible for Italian city-states to fund and lead the colonization of the Americas? There isn't a Spain in this world, and I'm thinking of France-England being a united monarchy in this world, so I can't think of too many other possible contenders.
• I think I'll have a Buddhist vassal of this world's Tangut Empire become the center of a Turkish state which conquers the Eastern Roman Empire and territories. So, imagine the Balkans with a Buddhist element injected into it too.
• My idea is now less of a Jurchen California, and more of a broader set of Asian horse nomads being introduced to North America. So imagine Jurchens, Khitans, and even Mongols on the Great Plains. The result would be probably a European-conquered America, but with horse nomads assimilated into the indigenous population.
• Regarding Africa, what's the best scenario for having most, if not all, of the population become Muslim?
• How strong was the Muslim population in India at this time? If a group of Buddhist invaders conquered India, would they be more likely to support Islam or Hinduism among the majority of non-Buddhists?
• With Africa and Southeast Asia predominantly Muslim, I'm imagining a situation similar to modern-day Buddhism. Nowadays almost all of the modern Buddhist holy sites are in majority-Hindu India and Nepal, with Buddhism being a minority in its homeland. In this world, all of the Muslim holy sites will be in the majority-Buddhist Middle East, and Islam will be a minority in its place of origin.

[Reichenfaust]

This sounds really good. However you could force the Khitans into africa with a strong Byzantium. Roman/Rhomanoi screws are typical of eastern focused TL's. Just a thought.

[WhatIsAUserName]

Originally Posted by Reichenfaust

This sounds really good. However you could force the Khitans into africa with a strong Byzantium. Roman/Rhomanoi screws are typical of eastern focused TL's. Just a thought.

I don't plan on having the Eastern Roman Empire survive till the present-day, but how about I let it survive longer as a concession? Maybe instead of simply disappearing, the imperial family survives, and presses its claim till the present-day? It would be like a Byzantine version of the Jacobite succession.

Okay, so developing my dates a little further (but not much), I have some more ideas:

• The Daxia (大夏) rule China roughly 1150 to 1350. They rule longer than the Mongols because the Tanguts are less about ethnic segregation than the Mongols. The Tanguts will probably be assimilated since they have less numbers than the Mongols or Manchus when those groups ruled China.
• The Tangut rule in Iran will probably be from 1125, 1150, or 1175 to about 1400. After that, a Persianate Buddhist Dynasty, claiming Tangut descent, will take over and rule 1400 to 1600. Buddhism will be dominant by 1700. For now, this Tangut Iranian state will be termed the Tangut Sultanate.
  
• Tangut rule in Central Asia will continue, but I imagine the Central Asian Tangut state will be quite weak, unable to impose its dominance. This state will be called for now the Tangut Khanate.
  
• The Jurchens will rule Korea roughly 1150 till 1400, when they are removed by the Chinese Dynasty that follows the Daxia.
• The Jurchens will probably rule Japan for about the same time, maybe 1150 to 1500. They will form initially a high-ranking class, but then will get shunted into the middle and lower classes. By the time they migrate to North America (I'm going to get this to work somehow) they will form a low caste.
  
• The Khitans will rule Syria 1150 to 1300 (as the Eastern Khitan Sultanate) and will rule Egypt 1200 to 1450 (as the Western Khitan Sultanate). In both cases, indigenous or foreign Muslim or Buddhist states will take temporary hold but will yield to indigenous Buddhist states too. Perhaps the Tangut Sultanate can exert some force in teh area too.
• The Tanguts will invade and conquer India eventually. Descendants of the Tangut Khanate will move their way down into India, conquering the north by 1300, moving into the south in 1500, and lasting till 1700. This might be called the Taghul Empire, in the same way Mongol became Mogul. The other option I have in mind is for India to be part of the vast initial Tangut Empire that spanned much of Eurasia. In this case, northern India will be conquered 1200, southern India by 1400, and the state will last until 1500.

Beyond these ideas I'm a bit uncertain. I'm waiting on some more feedback first, especially about Europe and Africa during this period, though any information about this era would be nice.

[TheLordProtector]

Originally Posted by WhatIsAUserName

[*][*]The Tangut rule in Iran will probably be from 1125, 1150, or 1175 to about 1400. After that, a Persianate Buddhist Dynasty, claiming Tangut descent, will take over and rule 1400 to 1600. Buddhism will be dominant by 1700. For now, this Tangut Iranian state will be termed the Tangut Sultanate.

I'd call it the Dhammarajate if I were you. That's more of a Buddhist title.

[*]Tangut rule in Central Asia will continue, but I imagine the Central Asian Tangut state will be quite weak, unable to impose its dominance. This state will be called for now the Tangut Khanate.

I imagine this would likely be assimilated into another nomadic empire?

This is a great idea! Go for it, man.

[FDW]

Interesting, there are some ideas here that are similar to what I proposed to BG for IE.

[WhatIsAUserName]

Originally Posted by TheLordProtector

I'd call it the Dhammarajate if I were you. That's more of a Buddhist title.



I imagine this would likely be assimilated into another nomadic empire?

This is a great idea! Go for it, man.

Okay, these are definite possibilities. Though I remember in China, I think the Emperor who called himself Dharma-Raja continued to call himself Emperor still.

Originally Posted by FDW

Interesting, there are some ideas here that are similar to what I proposed to BG for IE.

Isaac's Empire, right? I've never read it, so what have you proposed to him? I don't want to have too many similarities with another work. Unless there's a giant Tangut Empire timeline already, in which case I'll find something else.

[FDW]

Originally Posted by WhatIsAUserName

Isaac's Empire, right? I've never read it, so what have you proposed to him? I don't want to have too many similarities with another work. Unless there's a giant Tangut Empire timeline already, in which case I'll find something else.

I'm going to say any specifics at this point, but I don't use the Tanguts or Jurchen in the fashion you do at all, though some of themes you were going for (I won't say which) have some similarities to what I've proposed to BG. Though I find it unusual that you're using the Tangut in the fashion that you're going with, I had thought that they were actually sedentary and just had Mongol allies that stabbed them in the back after Genghis Khan rose to power.

[WhatIsAUserName]

Originally Posted by FDW

I'm going to say any specifics at this point, but I don't use the Tanguts or Jurchen in the fashion you do at all, though some of themes you were going for (I won't say which) have some similarities to what I've proposed to BG. Though I find it unusual that you're using the Tangut in the fashion that you're going with, I had thought that they were actually sedentary and just had Mongol allies that stabbed them in the back after Genghis Khan rose to power.

I'm pretty sure they were semi-nomadic originally, but did became more sedentary later. In this world, they'll be more nomadic than sedentary, but still employ aspects of Chinese nation-building. That's how they'll manage to get something like the Mongol Empire.

Okay, just to be sure, so the ideas that you proposed for Isaac's Empire, have they actually been implemented? I don't want to be accused of being unoriginal.

[FDW]

Originally Posted by WhatIsAUserName

I'm pretty sure they were semi-nomadic originally, but did became more sedentary later. In this world, they'll be more nomadic than sedentary, but still employ aspects of Chinese nation-building. That's how they'll manage to get something like the Mongol Empire.

Okay, just to be sure, so the ideas that you proposed for Isaac's Empire, have they actually been implemented? I don't want to be accused of being unoriginal.

Not yet, since BG's working at a glacial pace on version 2.0, and so far I don't think it's even 100 years removed from the POD.

[Grouchio]

What happened to this idea?

[WhatIsAUserName]

Originally Posted by Grouchio

What happened to this idea?

It hit a brick wall the second I realized I'd rather focus on a massive Khitan empire that spans all of Eurasia. I'm not getting rid of all these ideas, mind you. Just shifting the focus from the Tanguts to the Khitans. So the ideas in mind, like Buddhist Egypt or Jurchen California, are still applicable, but the title isn't going to be called "The White and Lofty" anymore.

[Sicarius]

Now I have a reworded version of "Ridin' Dirty" stuck in my head.

They see me rollin
They hatin
Patrollin
They tryin to catch me white n' lofty
Tryin to catch me white n' lofty
Tryin to catch me white n' lofty

[MNP]

Originally Posted by WhatIsAUserName

So I've been fond of the irony that the Xi Xia state, which existed in Northwestern China from 1038 to 1227, would refer to itself as the White and Lofty Great Xia State, despite the fact that it was hemmed in by stronger states and never really that White or Lofty. I've decided to write about a timeline where this is reversed, and the Xi Xia are indeed powerful.

To be honest, much of these ideas will look like I merely replaced the Mongols with Tanguts.

My initial plan would be for Li Yuanhao, who was Jingzong of the Western Xia, to reign longer, and be succeeded by more capable rulers and men. Later, when the Khitan Liao are overthrown by the Jurchens, who were consistently restless, and probably unified under the Wanyan tribe here too, the Jurchens aren't that successful, and the Tanguts of the Xi Xia manage to take most of Liao territory, and then defeat the Northern Song. In real life, the Southern Song came into existence because a Jurchen cavalry unit missed capturing Gaozong of Southern Song by a few minutes. In this world, there will be no Southern Song, just a handful of Chinese successor states in the south, who will be defeated in due time.

Then, the Tanguts would then proceed, in a manner similar to the Mongols in history, to conquer large swaths of Eurasia. Because the Tanguts were devoutly Buddhist, this will have the effect of imposing Buddhism through a much larger area.

So, for some of the butterflies and effects I had in mind: The Khitans in this world won't just flee to Central Asia and create the Kara Khitai. The advance of the Tanguts mean that the Khitans will instead go even further east. I'm thinking of either a Khitan version of the Ottoman Empire centered in Constantinople, or a Khitan Egypt. Next, the Tanguts will take Central Asia, Iran, and Afghanistan. Naysayers might say Islamization has taken too deep of a hold in these areas already. I envision a Buddhist Middle East instead, just for the sake of the butterflies.

A group of Tanguts will later take over most of India, in the same manner that a group of Mongol descendants became the Moghuls and did the same. As for the Jurchens, I'm thinking of them invading and conquering Korea and Japan, and then starting a maritime tradition that will see the Jurchens spread to Taiwan, the Philippines, and maybe even North America. I'm not sure about Europe though. I don't want a Tangut invasion of Russia: the parallels with the Mongols would start to get boring. Perhaps the Tangut invasion creates a wave of migration, and this world sees Naimans, Mongols, or Tatars invading Russia and forming their own states anyways. I'm not sure about the Eastern Roman Empire. However, I do plan to have the Tanguts weaken the position of the neighboring Muslim states, and perhaps the Crusader States survive longer, maybe even till the present day. Europe, more dedicated to Middle Eastern involvement, would turn out differently, but I'm not sure how. For the sake of divergence, I'm thinking of England having more of a European continental presence with a different Hundred Years' War.

A few last butterflies I had in mind: it's not too late for the Reconquista to fail, and it's still possible for Islam to spread into places that it never really reached historically. I'm thinking of the Indochina Peninsula, Thailand, and Burma, and maybe the New World. Otherwise, it seems the Muslim world is unreasonably unfortunate in this world.

The reason I post so much about an idea that I'm not really sure about, is because I'm thinking of making a miniature timeline, not some magnum opus, so don't expect LTTW or DoD. I'd also like to ask for your thoughts, and also for people who'd like to collaborate with me, because there are people here who are much more knowledgeable about history than I am.

So, any thoughts? I can already imagine the tag line: Muslim Vietnam? Khitan Egypt? Jurchen California? Why not try "The White and Lofty?"

That has some interesting similarities to what I did with Tanguts in the Raptor of Spain. The Tanguts are invited in as mercs/conquer Tibet during the opening of the Era of Fragmentation. The Jurchens wound the Khitans, but end up going into Korea and the Tanguts conquer them as the Tang Dynasty completes it's collapse. A few states survive for some time but the Tanguts eventually conquer China as militant Buddhists, butterflying away a serious reform movement for Confucianism meaning that is in major decline by the present (1100s).

That's where we start to diverge however, as I had the Tanguts fail in their attempt to conquer Central Asia and begin to collapse (too much too fast) returning China to a fragmented warlordism that has now gone on since the fall of Tang.

I like your ideas, but I have some religious questions. I hope I don't come off as a Naysayer. The western Mongol domains became Islamic because there were many in the armies already Islamic and the Mongols themselves didn't have a religion organized enough to stand up to Islam. You've done one with Buddhism (how do they justify their military conquests vis Buddhism?) but the first one is still a problem. I don't think you'd get a Buddhist ME, but maybe a mixed one with Christians in the country, Muslims in the cities (if you're starting in the 11th century) and chunks of Buddhism in both maybe controlling the balance of power? It could become more Buddhist over time. Also do the Tanguts have rockets?

I guess some of this depends on the exact dates of the PoD.

[Grouchio]

So are we getting a Khitai-wank TL anytime soon?

[WhatIsAUserName]

Originally Posted by MNP

That has some interesting similarities to what I did with Tanguts in the Raptor of Spain. The Tanguts are invited in as mercs/conquer Tibet during the opening of the Era of Fragmentation. The Jurchens wound the Khitans, but end up going into Korea and the Tanguts conquer them as the Tang Dynasty completes it's collapse. A few states survive for some time but the Tanguts eventually conquer China as militant Buddhists, butterflying away a serious reform movement for Confucianism meaning that is in major decline by the present (1100s).

That's where we start to diverge however, as I had the Tanguts fail in their attempt to conquer Central Asia and begin to collapse (too much too fast) returning China to a fragmented warlordism that has now gone on since the fall of Tang.

I like your ideas, but I have some religious questions. I hope I don't come off as a Naysayer. The western Mongol domains became Islamic because there were many in the armies already Islamic and the Mongols themselves didn't have a religion organized enough to stand up to Islam. You've done one with Buddhism (how do they justify their military conquests vis Buddhism?) but the first one is still a problem. I don't think you'd get a Buddhist ME, but maybe a mixed one with Christians in the country, Muslims in the cities (if you're starting in the 11th century) and chunks of Buddhism in both maybe controlling the balance of power? It could become more Buddhist over time. Also do the Tanguts have rockets?

I guess some of this depends on the exact dates of the PoD.

Well, if I'm still having a Tangut China (which doesn't necessarily mean a huge Tangut domain), it's going to collapse in a way similar to how the Yuan collapsed, to play up Mongol-Tangut parallels.

Also, maybe I was too strong in saying a "Buddhist Middle East" because I don't necessarily envision a Buddhist North Africa, so I'm thinking the Khitans won't go further than Egypt. Perhaps a 75% Buddhist, 15% Muslim, 10% Christian and other Middle East, or some combination that has Buddhists in the majority of at least the Asian parts of the Middle East. As for justification, I could imagine something like "We are invading this land and converting its people to the Middle Path, spreading the Dharma and bringing peace to the land."

Originally Posted by Grouchio

So are we getting a Khitai-wank TL anytime soon?

Soon? No. I might post little excerpts or ideas, but don't expect a full timeline any time soon.

[Selvetrica]

Sounds interesting I'm hoping for more than a few paragraphs I was a tl