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  #441  
Old June 5th, 2012, 09:00 PM
krinsbez krinsbez is offline
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Originally Posted by vultan View Post
Sorry for not being specific in this regard. The comic where I got the idea from (and no, I have not read the actual comic, but I read over the synopsis) was from the All Star Batman and Robin the Boy Wonder series, also written by Frank Miller, but released well after the POD of this timeline. In it, it's actually Batman's cruelty that turns him into a new Joker. Of course it's not the same circumstances in the movie, but it's the same general idea.

That clear everything up?
[fingers in ears]Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker is the only story wherein the Joker turns out to actually be a former Robin that exists. Frank Miller never wrote anything on the subject[/fingers in ears]
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  #442  
Old June 5th, 2012, 09:03 PM
vultan vultan is offline
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[fingers in ears]Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker is the only story wherein the Joker turns out to actually be a former Robin that exists. Frank Miller never wrote anything on the subject[/fingers in ears]
Oh, I see...

Again, I only read the synopsis...
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  #443  
Old June 5th, 2012, 09:17 PM
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The Cast of The Dark Knight

The big question on the mind of every Hollywood insider (and comic book fan) throughout 1993 and 1994 was, “Will Michael Keaton return as Bruce Wayne?” Despite the financial success of the Batman film series, the actor was actually giving mixed messages to producers and reporters alike when asked the question. Keaton did not want to be “married” to the franchise for the rest of his acting career, and wanted to pursue more interesting roles while he still had it left in him. Reportedly, he wanted to see a screenplay that gave the Caped Crusader a bit more limelight. In the words of one production insider “Let's face it, the Batman movies are about who's playing the villains — and there's Michael stuck in a rubber suit.” [1] Even when it became clear that Tim Burton was being “kicked upstairs” in regards to the next film and that Sam Raimi would be handed the director’s chair, it would be months before a definitive decision was announced.
Sooo...don't quite envision Michael Keaton in the role, but then again I didn't envision him in the regular Batman role either. He's probably good enough to pull it off, but he's just not going to look 'right' - still, he won't be bad.

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As a contingency plan for Keaton not returning, several actors were considered to replace him, including Bruce Willis, Daniel Day-Lewis, and Michael Madsen.
Nice of you to reference some of the ideas thrown out.

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However, despite being mum with the public in early 1994 regarding his role in The Dark Knight, Keaton had been in talks with both Sam Raimi and Tim Burton regarding the story. He was impressed by the plot of The Dark Knight Returns, seeing it as an interesting development of the Batman character. Despite the loss of Burton as director, with Raimi he felt a sense of continuity with the rest of the series, feeling that he could give a satisfactory conclusion to the trilogy. On July 1st, 1994, Michael Keaton officially announced that he would be joining the cast of The Dark Knight Rises.
No, not Rises! I can handle The Dark Knight as a shortened title, but stick with that, please.

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(Incidentally, this was the same day as the release of James Cameron’s Watchmen, which is generally credited with starting “The Superhero Craze” of the 90’s. Keaton maintains to this day that he hadn’t seen Watchmen until later on, and that it did not affect his decision to don the Batsuit for another bout.)
Funny.

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By this time, preproduction had begun in earnest, and the rest of the cast was being filled out. The first major role to be filled that of Harvey Dent/Two-Face, the Gotham District Attorney-turned-schizophrenic and scarred supervillain who made all of his decisions based on the flip of a coin. In the story of the comic, his face was repaired by plastic surgery (the procedure was actually paid for by Bruce Wayne), only to forever erase his “good” personality, becoming a ruthless and amoral criminal known as “the Face”. Though Billy Dee Williams had been cast in the role of Harvey Dent for Batman, Raimi used it the role as an opportunity to cast a good friend of his: Evil Dead star Bruce Campbell (when questioned on the consistency problems of casting two different actors for the same role in a film series, Campbell replied “Hey, they gave Harvey a new face- why couldn’t it have been mine?”)
I would have liked Billy Dee Williams to reprise the role, personally, even if it would have been a bit out of keeping with the depiction in The Dark Knight Returns. However, always like seeing Bruce Campbell get a leg up.

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After the critical and commercial success of Watchmen, which Campbell had also starred in as the vigilante The Comedian, this casting came became of subject of heavy attention in the entertainment industry, and is generally thought to have increased anticipation for the film. It also did much to raise Campbell’s own profile, allowing his transition from B-movie actor to A-lister.
While I want Campbell to do well, I don't know that being cast as the Comedian and then the Joker is going to do it - cast him in something high profile that isn't a superhero movie then we'll talk.

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Prior to Keaton’s entry, most of the cast was in place. Michael Gough
Michael Gough good!

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and Pat Hingle returned as Alfred Pennyworth and Commissioner Gordon, respectively.
Not sure that I would have Hingle in this role. Gordon needs some gravitas and I don't think Hingle projected that in his stint as Gordon.

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The role of Ellen Yindel, who over the course of the comic replaces the aforementioned James Gordon as Commissioner and is initially suspicious of “the Batman’s motives”, became a minor point of contention between Raimi and the studio during the screenwriting process. Unlike the last two films, the screenplay carried no female love interest for Bruce Wayne, and studio heads wanted to see Yindel reworked into this. Both Raimi and Burton balked at this prospect, with the latter commenting “…it was not what we were aiming for.” It was only when Michael Keaton told the studio in the summer that he wanted Yindel “…played like (the) comic or I’m out”, that they acquiesced. Mad About You actress Helen Hunt was cast.
Nice description of Hollywood politics. Personally, I like Helen Hunt, too, so works for me.

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For the leader of the street gang coalition plaguing Gotham City (replacing “the Mutants” gang in the comic, which Raimi felt was unrealistic and distracting),
I disagree, and in fact think that Burton would find them interesting to portray (remember, Burton often is a bit off kilter - so's Raimi for that matter). It's a minor thing, though you need to keep The Batman demonstrating his dominance and bringing them over to him.

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Burton fought for and landed Marlon Wayans in the part. Wayans had been promised the role of Robin in the third Batman film after his character was deleted at the last minute from the script of Batman Returns, but since Robin was not a male in this version, he was given another role (to combat any unfortunate implications from casting an African-American as a gang leader, the decision was made to make the gang as multiracial as possible).

Yeah, still going to take some flack over this (especially in your more racially charged 1990s). But I like the Wayans so....

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In the role of Oliver Green/Green Arrow, who leads a life of rebellion against the oppressive government after they banned superheroes, little-known television actor Jonathan Goldsmith was cast.
You made Green Arrow the Most Interesting Man In The World!!!!

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And as Carrie Kelly, the young girl who fills the role of Robin for Bruce Wayne so many years after Jason Todd, the original, was killed, a then-unknown 13 year-old named Kirsten Dunst was cast.
Dunst works.

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Still, even after the casting of the protagonist, two controversies in the casting were still unsolved (and needed to be solved fast if Raimi hoped to start filming in August). The first was that of the Joker. In the continuity of the Batman film franchise, he had been unambiguously killed at the end of the first movie. While that was not an especially big problem in-and-of itself (they don’t call it “comic book deaths” for nothing), the main issue was the actor who portrayed him in Batman: Jack Nicholson. Generally agreed to be one of the best actors working, he was also one of the most expensive. He had only agreed to do the first movie for a huge sum of money (eventually ending up in the range of $60 million, unadjusted), and with a more epic scale (and bigger budget) for The Dark Knight, Burton was hesitant to even call Nicholson up. When he did, he balked: the actor wouldn’t do it for any less than $100 million. However, when told he wouldn’t be cast, Nicholson was graceful, and even suggested a possible solution to the problem after he was told the synopsis. In his idea, Jason Todd really wasn’t killed, but Batman thought he was. Instead, he was captured by the Joker prior to the events of 1989’s Batman (nevermind the continuity problems, Jack was on a role) and tortured by him incessantly until a sort of “super-Stockholm syndrome” took place, and Jason Todd, the former Robin, became the next Joker! [2] This would be revealed to Bruce Wayne during the final Joker/Batman fight as a twist. Burton and Raimi liked the idea so much that they called up Frank Miller to see if he accepted the change to his idea, and he agreed enthusiastically (half-jokingly suggesting that Nicholson should be given a screenwriting credit for coming up with the idea).
Fun, but not certain that Nicholson would come up with the idea.

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Since this version of the Joker was supposed to be far more menacing and psychopathic than anything audiences had seen on screen before, they needed an actor who could instill a real sense of dread. For Raimi, the choice had become obvious: Ralph Fiennes, who had acquitted himself as a thespian capable of portraying pure evil in the part of Nazi war criminal Amon Goeth in Schindler’s List. Fiennes signed on shortly after Keaton did.

Fiennes is a good and interesting choice.

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The final issue was that of who would portray Superman. Here, everyone was in agreement. The studio, Burton, and Raimi all badly wanted Christopher Reeve, who had made his name portraying the Man of Steel for the highly lucrative Superman film series. The screenwriting team had been especially adamant in this regard, feeling that Superman’s reveal would have more meaning f he was being played by the actor that audiences had become accustomed to in the part. However, Reeve was less than ecstatic about taking the role again. He had been badly typecast as Clark Kent, and his acting career outside of the franchise had suffered for it (though to be fair, this could also be attributed to his habit of turning down many roles). He thought the media circus that would ensue as a result of his casting would hamper any efforts to find other, more serious work. However, Bruce Campbell made an interesting suggestion to Raimi. He mentioned that during the production of Watchmen, when Mark Hamill was cast as the vigilante Rorschach, it had been suggested by producer Joel Silver that the studio not announce who was portraying the role beforehand, so that the audience would be shocked by the reveal of the actor. While the idea was ultimately not used Campbell “figured it would work better here”. This way, Reeve would be spared the media attention during the filming and post-production process, and his role would ultimately be more of an “Easter egg.” When Reeve heard the suggestion, he was intrigued, and liked the nature of the reveal. The script was in his opinion much better than anything the Superman series had produced lately, and would give the character a bit of closure. In the end, Christopher Reeve agreed to take the part, on the condition that his salary would match that of Michael Keaton’s ($10 million).
Glad you got Reeve in there! Yes, it will be hard and not perfect to keep under wraps but either way, it will be great having him there.

With that, the main cast of The Dark Knight was finally filled out. Filming could now commence.

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...

[1] OTL quote from this article.
[2] Partially based on a Batman storyline.
It is a good way to deal with the continuity issue with Joker, though there are others.

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---

Already off the bat this casting decisions will affect the productions of several movies and TV shows that debuted historically in 1995, from The Wayan Bros. to Jumanji to Strange Days. Along with some butterflies for other places, this will be a fun year for entertainment...

Anyway, thoughts? Comments? Critiques?
Hmm, there are a few butterflies there, aren't there?!?
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  #444  
Old June 5th, 2012, 09:18 PM
Glen Glen is offline
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At Brainbin - love the Kevin Smith clip!
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  #445  
Old June 5th, 2012, 11:24 PM
Brainbin Brainbin is offline
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Hilarious video. Thanks for sharing!
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At Brainbin - love the Kevin Smith clip!
Glad you both liked it! In addition to being a great story, it does shed some light on the politics of Hollywood filmmaking in this era (not that it's any different now).
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  #446  
Old June 5th, 2012, 11:36 PM
vultan vultan is offline
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Sooo...don't quite envision Michael Keaton in the role, but then again I didn't envision him in the regular Batman role either. He's probably good enough to pull it off, but he's just not going to look 'right' - still, he won't be bad.
Well, personally I like Keaton as Batman. Perhaps it's because I haven't seen anyone else do better in my opinion (not even Bale, though he's a fine actor).

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No, not Rises! I can handle The Dark Knight as a shortened title, but stick with that, please.
Don't worry, 'twas a mistake on my part.
Fixed.

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While I want Campbell to do well, I don't know that being cast as the Comedian and then the Joker is going to do it - cast him in something high profile that isn't a superhero movie then we'll talk.
First, he's Two-Face (or "the Face"), not the Joker.
Second, this is merely his ascent. Being in two high-profile superhero movies is will get him noticed...

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Not sure that I would have Hingle in this role. Gordon needs some gravitas and I don't think Hingle projected that in his stint as Gordon.
Perhaps Hingle isn't the best, but he's there for continuity's sake.

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I disagree, and in fact think that Burton would find them interesting to portray (remember, Burton often is a bit off kilter - so's Raimi for that matter). It's a minor thing, though you need to keep The Batman demonstrating his dominance and bringing them over to him.
Yes, Burton and Raimi are both out there (though in different ways). However, I feel like the Mutants are something that work in a comic book setting, but would kind of seem odd, almost silly, in a movie that's trying to put a slightly more realistic spin on things. Remember, one of the reasons Burton was kicked upstairs in this timeline was because of the quirky excesses in Batman Returns (remember the penguin army?)

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You made Green Arrow the Most Interesting Man In The World!!!!
Couldn't resist.

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Fun, but not certain that Nicholson would come up with the idea.
Hey, it's not the biggest stretch I've gone with in my timeline so far.

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Fiennes is a good and interesting choice.
Thanks!

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Glad you got Reeve in there! Yes, it will be hard and not perfect to keep under wraps but either way, it will be great having him there.
A once-in-a-lifetime experience. Even if it does leak, people are going to come out in droves to see it all the same.

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It is a good way to deal with the continuity issue with Joker, though there are others.
Out of curiosity, what are some of those other ways?

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Hmm, there are a few butterflies there, aren't there?!?
There certainly are...
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  #447  
Old June 6th, 2012, 11:37 AM
MaskedPickle MaskedPickle is offline
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The Green Arrow makes it one of the most interesting castings in the world. (couldn't resist)
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  #448  
Old June 6th, 2012, 11:57 AM
Glen Glen is offline
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The Green Arrow makes it one of the most interesting castings in the world. (couldn't resist)
He is so powerful that he had Superman take his arm off just to make things more interesting.
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  #449  
Old June 7th, 2012, 01:15 AM
vultan vultan is offline
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OK, so yeah, there'll be about a month-long hiatus for this timeline. Sorry if I disappoint anyone!
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  #450  
Old June 7th, 2012, 02:59 AM
phx1138 phx1138 is offline
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Originally Posted by vultan
a then-unknown 13 year-old named Kirsten Dunst
TTL, has she not done "Interview with the Vampire"? (Released '94... And I can't believe she was actually 13 in that.)

Reading further, I take it this is released first.
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Originally Posted by vultan
Jason Todd really wasn’t killed...he was captured...[&] became... Joker!
That's not going to surprise any comics fan I know. What might be an actual surprise would be to learn Jason had been the Joker all along, & only decided to become Robin because being a homicidal maniac was getting boring. (Don't know if you could sell that, tho. Although, for the Joker, like for Hitler, almost anything goes.)
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Originally Posted by vultan
Partially based on a Batman storyline.
See what I mean? When Doc Doom has been dead more times than Erica Kane has been married, it takes a lot to find a solution fans haven't seen before. (I don't suppose pulling a Hobgoblin is on...?)
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Originally Posted by vultan
make the gang as multiracial as possible
Only in Hollywood would this actually make sense. Gangs are (AFAIK) without exception uniracial, for some obvious reasons: "them" & "us', for a start...

I find myself agreeing with BB, you'd need to use a cloaking device to get Reeve on & off the set without the whole world noticing. (I don't suppose you could fake it as shooting a whole different picture, & cut it together in post...?)

I do like that the idea for the alt-Joker comes from Nicholson, tho.
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Originally Posted by vultan
OK, so yeah, there'll be about a month-long hiatus for this timeline. Sorry if I disappoint anyone!
I'm going into withdrawal already. Hope it's not for a serious problem...
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Last edited by phx1138; June 7th, 2012 at 03:15 AM.. Reason: clannishness
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  #451  
Old June 7th, 2012, 03:12 AM
vultan vultan is offline
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TTL, has she not done "Interview with the Vampire"? (Released '94... And I can't believe she was actually 13 in that.)

Reading further, I take it this is released first.
No, this is released in 1995, and Interview with the Vampire was still released (pretty much as per OTL) in 1994. I'm sorry I wasn't more clear- at the time of Dunst's casting, she was pretty much unknown.
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  #452  
Old June 8th, 2012, 02:22 AM
phx1138 phx1138 is offline
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No, this is released in 1995, and Interview with the Vampire was still released (pretty much as per OTL) in 1994. I'm sorry I wasn't more clear- at the time of Dunst's casting, she was pretty much unknown.
Clearer, thx.
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  #453  
Old June 17th, 2012, 12:09 AM
Brady Kj Brady Kj is offline
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I was thinking about the Men In Black. If I understand correctly (I haven't been able to track down a copy of the series) the comic book version of J was a lot like an Owen Wilson character, so I'd suggest him for the role. And in order to keep a bit of interracial buddy copy dynamic, I'd definitely recommend finding a K in a different color.
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  #454  
Old June 17th, 2012, 03:07 AM
Kalvan Kalvan is offline
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Well, at that age, the choices would be between an intense, strict Yaphet Koto or Denzel Washington, and a laid back, mellow, but sarcastic Morgan Freeman or Bill Cosby.

Unfortunately, neither Freeman nor Cosby could maintain the franchice's credibility for more than six year at the maximum.
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  #455  
Old June 17th, 2012, 04:44 AM
Brady Kj Brady Kj is offline
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Would Sidney Poitier also be a possibility? Or James Earl Jones? Bill Cosby did come to my mind as well. Also, why would it have to last six years? That's a long time for a movie franchise?
Now, I can't think of any Latinos or Asians who'd make a good K, so I think black's the best option. But if I were a betting man, I'd bet that Vultan would go with at least one Watchmen actor in that movie, or Richard Dean Anderson, which would be good choices.
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  #456  
Old June 17th, 2012, 08:01 AM
ColeMercury ColeMercury is offline
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Would Sidney Poitier also be a possibility? Or James Earl Jones?
They're both pushing it a bit: Poitier is nearly 20 years older than Tommy Lee Jones, and James Earl Jones is about 15 years older.
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  #457  
Old June 17th, 2012, 11:42 AM
Brainbin Brainbin is offline
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They're both pushing it a bit: Poitier is nearly 20 years older than Tommy Lee Jones, and James Earl Jones is about 15 years older.
True, but remember that Jones looks considerably older than he is, which made him more believable as an agent on the verge of retirement (at the age of 50). Consider Space Cowboys, where he is portrayed as being of a similar age as Clint Eastwood, James Garner, and Donald Sutherland - who are, in reality, an average of about fifteen years older than he. Therefore, someone like James Earl Jones would probably be just the right age to play such a character.

(Personally, Morgan Freeman strikes me as the obvious choice - to the point that it may be too much of a cliche.)
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  #458  
Old June 18th, 2012, 03:06 AM
phx1138 phx1138 is offline
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For me, there's also an issue of playing older. James Earl Jones strikes me as someone with the gravitas to play somebody quite a bit more worn, weary, experienced than he actually is. Freeman, too. Poitier, no: even in "Shoot to Kill", he seemed to play younger.

Something else, tho: would it be possible to cast an actor who was (at the time OTL) was less well-known? For these roles, wouldn't "unknowns" have a benefit of anonymity appropriate for the character? Or at least avoid the preconceptions of casting "I'm a star", so you never actually see the character?
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  #459  
Old June 28th, 2012, 07:25 PM
jerseyrules jerseyrules is offline
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Is this dead?
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  #460  
Old June 29th, 2012, 01:08 AM
Brady Kj Brady Kj is offline
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Is this dead?
This the following quote, from June 7.
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OK, so yeah, there'll be about a month-long hiatus for this timeline. Sorry if I disappoint anyone!
Give it two weeks.
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