The Whale has Wings

[Faralis]

Well, its usual to accuse the Americans of being unprepared, a bit racist and with "peace mentality", but IMHO there is also the little detail that the preparation, organization, security and execution of the plan by the Japanese is faultless and almost perfect. All, from the HQ to the last sailor worked as a "swiss clock" and did something considered almost impossible ( and with good reason ).

The fact is, IMHO, that at the beginning of the war the IJN had the best naval aviation of the world, maybe the RN was better at night operations, but thats all.

ITTL that is not truth anyway.

[Astrodragon]

Originally Posted by Faralis

Well, its usual to accuse the Americans of being unprepared, a bit racist and with "peace mentality", but IMHO there is also the little detail that the preparation, organization, security and execution of the plan by the Japanese is faultless and almost perfect. All, from the HQ to the last sailor worked as a "swiss clock" and did something considered almost impossible ( and with good reason ).

The fact is, IMHO, that at the beginning of the war the IJN had the best naval aviation of the world, maybe the RN was better at night operations, but thats all.

ITTL that is not truth anyway.

The differences between the 3 carrier navies at the beginning of 1942 are a result of their doctrine and experience.

The IJN has the best pilots.
The RN's best pilots are better than the USN (combat experience and darwinian selection)
The bulk of USN pilots are better than the buk of the RN (more, longer training allowed for by being at peace)
The rest of the RN pilots are not as experienced as the USN pilots.

The RN doctrine has been shaped by their operational experience. They still favour a night strike unless the opposition is much weaker (or has no air cover), as they think noone else can do this (they're correct). They do have the advantage )both in day and night) of AS radar on some of their search planes.

The RN, the USN and the IJN are closer on a lot of things, as the RN's experience is known in detail to the USN, and inferred by the IJN - things like big strikes being far more effective than a number of smaller ones, the need to manage CAP against heavy and regular attacks, that sort of thing.

The USN does have the advantage of knowing exactly what the RN has been doing, why, and what hapenned. This includes the results of combat damage to their carriers.

The RN has the toughest carriers, and after a number of experiences their damage control has inproved (but it isnt as good as the USN). The IJN has poor damage control and rather fragile carriers. The RN has by far the most experience of handling raids, controlling its fighters, and so on. It also has by far the heaviest close-in AA. The sheer amount of 20mm and 40mm firepower on an RN carrier and its close escort is going to be a nasty experience for the IJN (they know in theory its heavy. That isnt the same as facing it...)

The planes situation is a bit more complex. The RN has much better planes than in OTL, but supply is an issue. The Zero is still the dominant fighter at slow speeds. The IJN planes will be very vulnerable to the heavily armed RN planes, and also to boom-and-zoon tactics. The RN is going to lose planes before thsi becomes obvious, but the better planes mean more survive and the lessons can be passed on faster. The IJN planes still have way longer range than anyone elses (the RN and USN planes have similar performance). The USA will have brought in the Wildcat faster, the Buffalo is pretty much out of frontline serviec by the end of 1941. The Japanese are the same as OTL(they simply dont have the resources to change much (they are still embedded in China). The Corsair will be in use in small numbers on land (used by the US Marines); peacetime safetly issues means it wont be carrier-certified by the time of PH, although the process will possibly have been speeded up a bit. The USN is still overconfident of its planes, the RN has been busy matching the RA and the LW, they havent time or effort to worry much about Japanese planes.

Both the RN and the USN start out underestimating the Japanese, the US probably being more overconfident (operational experience tends to make you more wary of what the enemy may come up with you werent expecting), but this will vanish very soon as in OTL.

The USN has the highest aircraft capacity due to deck parking. The RN, while it can use this, probably wont have the planes to meke it normally useful for a while.

[Astrodragon]

2nd August. The funeral is held for Major Werner Molders. One of the most experienced fighter pilots in the Luftwaffe, Molders had been part of the heavy fighter escort for a bombing raid on Dover on the 28th July. He had encountered the leader of the RAF fighter squadron, 'Sailor' Malan, and in a brief but deadly dogfight his Me109 had been severely damaged by the Spitfires cannon. He had been seen to fall into the Channel with his stricken aircraft.


12th August- 23rd August, (Adlerangriff)


During this period the Luftwaffe made a determined attack on the coastal airfield, the fighter squadrons using them, and the Radar system. In addition attacks were carried out during both day and night all over the UK.


The attacks on the Radar system, while serious, were not followed up and the system remained operation and functioning, to the detriment of the Luftwaffe. Although repeated raids were made on the Radar chain, it proved resilient to bombing attacks.
The raids suffered heavy casualties due to the defending RAF fighters. The cannon-armed Hurricanes and Spitfires were proving the medium Luftwaffe bombers insufficiently protected, and as a result more and more fighters were allocated to defense of the bomber formations. The losses suffered by the slow Ju87 were so heavy it was withdrawn from the attack (a point which was immediately noted by the navy, as this was the plane that most worried them from the point of view of air attack on their ships).


With the exception of the rather random attacks across the country, the bombing was concentrated in the South East, meaning that the FAA formations in the north had little to do. The exception came on the 15th, when Luftflotte 5 (operating from Norway) made two separate large scale attacks. It was not clear if this was because they thought all RAF fighters were in the South, or simply to find out if this was the case. One attack , by 50 unescorted Ju88's was made on RAF Great Driffield. This was intercepted by a Hurricane squadron. The squadron was inexperienced (it was in the area to complete the training of many of its new pilots), and the Ju88 was a slippery opponent, but even so they shot down 6 of them, one Hurricane being damaged. The disruption to the attacks meant little damage was done to targets


The attack on the North East was made by 65 He111's escorted by34 Me110's. In order to get greater range, the Me110's were using drop tanks and has left their gunners behind. The raid was intercepted by 27 Goshawks (one squadron which had been scrambled, and a further flight of 9 planes which had been already in the air, training, and were close enough (thanks to the goshawks range) to be vectored onto the raid. The result was a disaster for the Luftwaffe. 10 of the Me110's were shot down (indeed, a couple exploded when the notoriously unreliable drop tanks failed to detach, the petrol vapors exploding when hit by shells). 19 of the He111's were seen to fall (and a further 5 failed to make it home due to damage). Three Goshawks were damage, but none were lost. The total loss to the Luftwaffe was 40 planes for no losses to the defenders. No further heavy raids against the mainland were made by Luftflotte 5.


On the 12th August The first Bristol Beaufighters are delivered to the Fighter Interception Unit at Tangmere, They are equipped with A.I. MkIV (airborne interception) radar.


An experimental British radar, using the cavity magnetron which was developed only six months earlier, tracks an aircraft for the first time.


The following day, the same cavity magnetron experimental radar, tracks a man on a bicycle for the first time -- though his radar cross-section is enhanced by the tin lid from a box of biscuits.

[Tyg]

Originally Posted by Astrodragon

The following day, the same cavity magnetron experimental radar, tracks a man on a bicycle for the first time -- though his radar cross-section is enhanced by the tin lid from a box of biscuits.

And so the first speed trap was invented.

And the bike rider lost all his biscuits.

[Astrodragon]

Originally Posted by Tyg

And so the first speed trap was invented.

And the bike rider lost all his biscuits.

Just equip the Luftwaffe with bicycles and we're golden....

[Tyg]

Originally Posted by Astrodragon

Just equip the Luftwaffe with bicycles and we're golden....

Courtesy of alien sealions, no doubt.

[The Oncoming Storm]

So someone else will be the first pilot to claim 100 combat kills, probably more fitting that Molders died in combat instead of in a crash caused by bad weather. Obviously this is a consequence of the RAF having cannon armed fighters at this time, are the LW's losses higher as a consequence?

[trekchu]

Cannon-armed Spits and Hurries. I like.

Shot down Nazis, I like even more.

Radar-equipped fighters, epic.

The Fat One will face some difficult questions soon.

[The Oncoming Storm]

Originally Posted by trekchu

Cannon-armed Spits and Hurries. I like.

Shot down Nazis, I like even more.

Radar-equipped fighters, epic.

The Fat One will face some difficult questions soon.

This is going to do wonders for his heroin addiction!

[Ash's Boomstick]

Originally Posted by Astrodragon

Just equip the Luftwaffe with bicycles and we're golden....

Or a tin of biscuits each.

[Simon]

Originally Posted by Astrodragon

Just equip the Luftwaffe with bicycles and we're golden....

Bicycles? Nein! They shall all be issued with a tin of Lebkucheneach. That way at least they shall have something tasty to eat before being shot down.

Originally Posted by trekchu

The Fat One will face some difficult questions soon.

That might actually be a problem. What would happen if he got the sack and they actually put someone competent in charge of things?

[Peg Leg Pom]

Originally Posted by The Oncoming Storm

This is going to do wonders for his heroin addiction!

He'll have to order new uniforms as well, just so he is properly dressed for his discussions with Hitler.

All of them with brown trousers.

[trekchu]

Originally Posted by Simon

That might actually be a problem. What would happen if he got the sack and they actually put someone competent in charge of things?

Agreed. Freakily enough you ninja'd me as I was about to post something to the same effect.

[stevep]

Originally Posted by trekchu

Agreed. Freakily enough you ninja'd me as I was about to post something to the same effect.

Originally Posted by Simon

.....

That might actually be a problem. What would happen if he got the sack and they actually put someone competent in charge of things?

Guys

Possible as he was so totally incompetent but, this is the Nazis we're talking about. He was a long established veteran member of the party and as well as being the 'founder' of the Luftwaffe had a huge roll as Reich Marshall with many economic and political tasks. Short of him being found having it off with Eva or openly trying to assassinate Adolph I think he's too firmly established to be removed. Especially since, while the Germans are going to clearly have lost in that they have failed to clear the way for an invasion I suspect RAF losses will be talked up considerable whereas for the Luftwaffe 'err we lost two or three planes to bad weather...'.

Mind you the FAA interception in the north is going to really sting. I think when the Germans tried a strike from Norway OTL they got roughly handled but nothing like that level.

Steve

[amphibulous]

Originally Posted by Astrodragon

The differences between the 3 carrier navies at the beginning of 1942 are a result of their doctrine and experience.

I'd suggest that you missed some of the most important points (at least in OTL.) Which is easily done because there are so damn many candidates!

- The USN have realized that scouting out the enemy before he finds you is vital in a carrier-vs-carrier battle, hence the building of Scout-Bombers. The Japanese don't get this at all, and relegate finding the enemy to seaplanes launched from carriers - fewer in number and much less capable.

- The IJN is the only one that has the ability to form coordinated striking groups from multiple carriers. They'll overwhelm an opponent with simultaneous torpedo strikes from two directions AND large numbers of dive-bombers covered by a cloud of Zeroes. The US will hope to get all the e.g. TBs lanched from a single deck to the target at the same time as their fighter cover but will often fail to do this.

- But the IJN has woefully inadequate air defense doctrine. It basically comes down to Zero pilots doing whatever they want - radio, if carried, is pretty useless in the Zero. No one thinks to tell them "Whatever you do, don't excited chasing retreating enemy aircraft and leave your carriers without any cover!" So at Midway that's exactly what they do.

So the overall sum of IJN doctrine and hardware is a pretty bizarre thing - "If we find you, we'll land you a hell of wallop - but the odds are that you'll find us first, our fighters will act like Royalist cavalry in the ECW and disappear, our AA sucks, our carriers are firetraps, and our damage control makes our AA look good."

[amphibulous]

Originally Posted by stevep

Guys

Possible as he was so totally incompetent but, this is the Nazis we're talking about. He was a long established veteran member of the party and as well as being the 'founder' of the Luftwaffe had a huge roll as Reich Marshall with many economic and political tasks. Short of him being found having it off with Eva

I think Adolf would have been glad to find someone to take her off his hands. Now, if Goering had made the faux pas of eating the last cream cake (Hitler *really* loved cream cakes) then he might have been in trouble...

[stevep]

Originally Posted by amphibulous

I'd suggest that you missed some of the most important points (at least in OTL.) Which is easily done because there are so damn many candidates!

- The USN have realized that scouting out the enemy before he finds you is vital in a carrier-vs-carrier battle, hence the building of Scout-Bombers. The Japanese don't get this at all, and relegate finding the enemy to seaplanes launched from carriers - fewer in number and much less capable.

- The IJN is the only one that has the ability to form coordinated striking groups from multiple carriers. They'll overwhelm an opponent with simultaneous torpedo strikes from two directions AND large numbers of dive-bombers covered by a cloud of Zeroes. The US will hope to get all the e.g. TBs lanched from a single deck to the target at the same time as their fighter cover but will often fail to do this.

- But the IJN has woefully inadequate air defense doctrine. It basically comes down to Zero pilots doing whatever they want - radio, if carried, is pretty useless in the Zero. No one thinks to tell them "Whatever you do, don't excited chasing retreating enemy aircraft and leave your carriers without any cover!" So at Midway that's exactly what they do.

So the overall sum of IJN doctrine and hardware is a pretty bizarre thing - "If we find you, we'll land you a hell of wallop - but the odds are that you'll find us first, our fighters will act like Royalist cavalry in the ECW and disappear, our AA sucks, our carriers are firetraps, and our damage control makes our AA look good."

amphibulous

Interesting analysis and the embolden above sounds promising. However I suspect that whoever fights a big battle 1st with KB will get a kicking simply because they will grossly underestimate them. Especially the manoeuvrability of the Zeros and the ranges they can operation from. If either/both western powers can survive that 1st clash with the core of a functioning carrier force still in operation then while there will be a long way to go they should be able to wear them down.

Steve

Steve

[Peg Leg Pom]

You left out the RN the only carrier fleet with experience facing prolonged attacks by land based bombers with fighter escorts, and by 1942 using carrier based aircraft for anti submarine work.

[StevoJH]

Originally Posted by Peg Leg Pom

You left out the RN the only carrier fleet with experience facing prolonged attacks by land based bombers with fighter escorts, and by 1942 using carrier based aircraft for anti submarine work.

Don't forget radar and their training in night attacks.

[Shevek23]

And it's worth remembering, very little of the RN's current assets ITTL have to do with having more advanced tech than OTL. It's a matter of their having more carriers in '39 and more carrier craft and the FAA having had the authority to order airplanes of the type they needed and to have had some time to work the bugs out before the war started. And then after that, most of this list of advantages to the RN comes from having had experience, sometimes bitter, with actually fighting the battles that come to them. That guides the sort of equipment they request for upgrades and the changes in doctrine.

As far as I can judge, Astrodragon has been restrained in advancing the actual technology. What's improved is that the orchestrated use of it has been shaken down in practice.

Oh, and that they have airplanes of a type that carrier Navy pilots want, not hand-me-downs from the RAF landplanes or whatever they can scrounge from the Americans.