Carlist Spain preview

Xen · Oct 3, 2005

Here's a preview of a timeline Ive been working on for sometime, its not quite complete but it gives you an idea where everything is going, it covers a period of a little more than a century from the end of the Napoleonic Wars to the ending of the Great War. I hope I didn't follow our history's timeline too much, but I can see where I did at a few places.

1813: King Fernando VII of Spain contracts pneumonia while incarcerated by Napoleon; he dies 10 days later
1814: Congress of Vienna restores ancien regime of Spain in the form of King Carlos V
1815: End of the Anglo-American War of 1812; Final defeat of Napoleon at the Battle of Waterloo
1816: Princess of Wales Charlotte gives birth to her first child, Prince George
1818: King George III dies, succeeded by his son King George IV
1819: United States purchases Florida from Spain; Simon Bolivar defeats Royalists at Boyaca
1821: Colombia and Mexico gain independence from Spain; Royalists defeat separatists in Central America
1822: Simon Bolivar’s attempts to liberate Central America defeated by loyalist army
1823: Rebellions in Upper and Lower Peru defeated by monarchists
1827: Greece declares independence from Ottoman Empire
1830: King Charles X of France is forced to abdicate after the July Revolution, succeeded by Louis-Philippe I; Belgium declares independence from the Netherlands
1831: King George IV dies, succeeded by his daughter Queen Charlotte
1833: Slaves freed in the British Empire
1834: American Whig Party formed
1836: Texas declares independence from Mexico
1837: Arstook War, border dispute between United States and United Kingdom settled in British favor
1841: Opium War forces China to open to western exploitation; American settlers begin traveling the Oregon Trail
1844: King Carlos V dies, succeeded by his 12-year-old son Carlos VI
1846: Year of Revolution’s in Europe, Louis-Philippe I abdicates in favor of his son Philippe VII; Peru declares independence from Spain; Louis Napoleon Bonaparte arrested after failed coup in France; Austrian Emperor Ferdinand I abdicates in favor of his brother Franz Karl
1846-1847: Mexican-American War results in Mexico ceding its northern territories to the United States
1852: Admiral Oliver Smith of the Royal Navy visits Japan, forcing Japan to open to foreign trade
1856: Bleeding Kansas incident, Alabama secedes from the Union, followed Georgia and South Carolina; election of Arstook War hero and Unionist Alfred Butler of the Whig Party.
1857: Formation of the Confederated States of America, American Civil War begins with Union troops supporting Unionist at an Arlington Riot in Virginia. President Butler emancipates the slaves in rebelling states
1857-1860: American Civil War
1860: Confederate President Alexander Stephens captured by Union trying to flee to Florida, effectively ending the Civil War; General Jefferson Davis surrenders his Army to the Union at Bainbridge, Ga; all slaves in America emancipated; Reconstruction begins in American southeast
1861-1864: Italian Wars of unification
1864: With the exception of the Papal States, Italian peninsula united under a Bourbon King; Austrian-Prussian War, creation of the North German Confederation
1866: Queen Charlotte dies, succeeded by her son King Henry IX
1868-1870: Russo-Turkish War
1869: Beginning of Japanese modernization
1870: Moldova and Wallachia annexed into Russian Empire, Bulgaria and Serbia granted independence
1872: Insurrection in Spanish-American Empire begins, gaining American and British support
1875: Central American Confederation achieves independence from Spain
1876: The United States celebrates its centennial jubilee, Austrian Civil War
1877: Cuba and Santo Domingo declares independence from Spain, making Puerto Rico the last Spanish possession in the Americas; Austrian Emperor Franz Karl dies, he succeeded by his son Ferdinand II
1879: Austrian Civil War ends with a compromise with Hungarian separatists creating a dual monarchy
1880: Beginning of Chinese modernization; Serfs freed in Russia; Spanish Industrialization begins in full forced with mixed results
1881: King Philippe VII dies; his son King Louis-Philippe II succeeds him
1882: Rush for African colonies by European powers; Collapse of the Central American Confederation
1884: Empire of Brazil frees its slaves
1888: Zulu War
1890: US-Nicaragua War, US Marines intervene in Nicaraguan Civil War
1892: King Henry IX dies, succeeded by his son King Henry X
1894: Hawaii annexed by the British Empire, beginning the decline of Anglo-American relations
1896: Spanish-Japanese War; Spain cedes its Pacific colonies to the Empire of Japan
1897: Construction of the Nicaraguan Canal Begins
1898: German, British and Italian warships open fire on Costa Rica to collect its debt
1902: Norway declares independence from Sweden
1904: Quadruple Entente formed by Russia, France, Spain and Austria-Hungary
1906: Quadruple Alliance formed in response to the Quadruple Entente with the United Kingdom, German Confederation, Portugal and Italy
1907: Confrontation between France and Britain over designs on their respective African Empire’s
1909: Border disputes between France and Britain escalate into global war, Japan joins the Quadruple Entente, China is coaxed into the Quadruple Alliance; Spanish troops overwhelm British defenders
1909-1916: The Great War
1910: American propaganda exploits the sinking of the merchant ship, the Brooklyn, bringing the US into the war against the Quadruple Alliance; Ottoman Empire declares war on the Quadruple Entente and the United States
1911: The Battle of Pearl Harbor, the US Navy’s and Japanese Navy’s attempt to wrestle the Naval base from the Royal Navy; Gibraltar recaptured by British and Portuguese allies
1912: British bombardment of New York proceeds a failed invasion of Long Island, the United States receives morale boost when the city of Winnipeg falls to advancing American forces, the city of Vancouver is reduced to ruin by continuous bombardments from American artillery; Constantinople falls to Russia, it is quickly recovered by a British-Ottoman counter attack, Japan successfully invades the Korean peninsula at Pusan but is pushed back into the sea two months later in a massacre
1913: The Quadruple Alliance begins exploiting holes in the western front and punching through French and Spanish lines, the United States after an 11-month siege finally overwhelms the defenders at Montreal; Toronto falls on Christmas Eve
1914: The ruins of Vancouver fall to the United States, American submarine “Wolf packs” hunt British supply and troop ships in the North Atlantic, in the month of May 11 Troop transports are sunk, killing thousands of British soldiers destined to fight on the American front, Austria surrenders to the Quadruple Alliance with the Treaty of Bern
1915: France and Spain overwhelmed on the lines surrenders to the Quadruple Alliance with the treaty of Amsterdam, leaving only Russia, Japan and the United States to continue the fight; Japan sues for peace on terms of a pre-war status quo, bowing out to fight another day, the United States and Quadruple Alliance agree to a cease fire
1916: Russian forces defeated at Battle of Warsaw, allied troops begin bombardment of St Petersburg leading to Russia’s surrender with the Treaty of Stockholm; the United States and Quadruple Alliance signs a peace accord in Casablanca

**************Authors notes************************
Im having a time with some of these treaties that ended the war, I am torn in a couple of places. Part of me wants Austria to be annexed into Germany, but another part of me wants Austria to be reduced to something similiar to its present shape and form but as a constitutional monarchy.

Spain I'm going to pretty much leave as is, it will lose Puerto Rico, which will become a Republic.

France will be stripped of much of her Empire

Italy will annex the Papal States and move its capital from Ravenna to Rome

Poland and Bohemia will be annexed into the newly founded German Empire, with the new Kingdom of Dacia and Ukraine becoming German satellites.

There will be a border readjustment between China and Russia, that is a given, but Japan as I mentioned will retain its pre-war borders

North America is another place where I am torn, part of me wants to have the English speaking portion of Canada annexed within the United States, with the French speaking part becoming the Republic of Canada with the capital in Montreal.

On the other hand I want there to be an English Canada but in a somewhat different form. Obviously there will be some border readjustments, perhaps the US annexes the Martime provinces, Vancouver Island and maybe some territory around the Niagra. Canada will have to form a new government, a Republican one that guarantees her neutrality, sort of like a larger Belgium. Same with French Canada.

Newfoundland no matter what will remain British, just like either way the Maritime dominions will become American.

The American domination of the Caribbean that happens in the nineteenth century will end. The British will seize the Nicaraguan Canal, which I can see them offering some sort of cooperative deal with the United States on managing it, perhaps an Anglo-American Canal Committee (AACC) of some sort?

Any suggestions? Ideas? Comments?

Nicole · Oct 3, 2005

I support the German-Austria as Constitutional Monarchy idea...

Wendell · Oct 3, 2005

Yes, in North America...

Is Alaska still Russian?

Maybe parts of southern Ontario could be ceded to the U.S. with Maritime Canada, and Alaska, if not still in Russian posession?

Xen · Oct 4, 2005

Yes Alaska is still Russian, Im thinking of having it become a Republic that breaks away from the Russian Empire. Alaska in the 1870s thru to the break out of the Great War was where political prisoners were sent into exile. Britain will support Alaskan independence, giving it control of the Bering Straight by letting it annex a part of the Russian Far East, so it will have maybe 300,000 people at most by the time it achieved independence. The Alaskan-Yukon border will be different, in Yukon's favor.

If I let Canada go as an independent Republic, it will have to lose Vancouver Island and the city as well. After the blood bath that occured to take the city, Im sure the American's wouldnt willingly hand it back, even if it is in ruins.

Im currently leaning towards having the United States annex English Canada outright though. Although the war in Europe is over, the British and their German allies can't do much about it, the war drained them financially, and then theres the matter of logistics, and crossing the deep blue sea with American submarine's preying on their shipping. Plus rebuilding the devestated infrastructure would fall squarely on the shoulders of the United States, and the United States alone. They might take the stance of there being far worse fates Canada could suffer than becoming American, whether Canadians see it that way or not is a different story.

So what would an annexed Canada look like? I would imagine we'd see an organization something similiar to the IRA, we'll call it the Canadian Liberation Army (CLA). It would be a group of Canadian nationalists made up of former Canadian soldiers, farmers, women and people of all walks of life. Their primary target will originally be the occupying forces of the US Army, and enjoy support by much of the Canadian population. Note the CLA will not have most of the Canadian population join their ranks, I figure Canadians will support someone else doing the fighting, but like anyother nation would prefer to be left alone rather than run the risk of being killed. They can cause trouble for the US, but would be unable to drive them off. They could evolve into a terrorist organization, car bombs in major cities, kidnappings, etc. How many Canadian "Loyalists" would flee the Americans for places in the Empire such as Newfoundland, Hawaii, British Honduras, New Zealands, etc?

Wendell · Oct 4, 2005

Xen said:
Yes Alaska is still Russian, Im thinking of having it become a Republic that breaks away from the Russian Empire. Alaska in the 1870s thru to the break out of the Great War was where political prisoners were sent into exile. Britain will support Alaskan independence, giving it control of the Bering Straight by letting it annex a part of the Russian Far East, so it will have maybe 300,000 people at most by the time it achieved independence. The Alaskan-Yukon border will be different, in Yukon's favor.

If I let Canada go as an independent Republic, it will have to lose Vancouver Island and the city as well. After the blood bath that occured to take the city, Im sure the American's wouldnt willingly hand it back, even if it is in ruins.

Im currently leaning towards having the United States annex English Canada outright though. Although the war in Europe is over, the British and their German allies can't do much about it, the war drained them financially, and then theres the matter of logistics, and crossing the deep blue sea with American submarine's preying on their shipping. Plus rebuilding the devestated infrastructure would fall squarely on the shoulders of the United States, and the United States alone. They might take the stance of there being far worse fates Canada could suffer than becoming American, whether Canadians see it that way or not is a different story.

So what would an annexed Canada look like? I would imagine we'd see an organization something similiar to the IRA, we'll call it the Canadian Liberation Army (CLA). It would be a group of Canadian nationalists made up of former Canadian soldiers, farmers, women and people of all walks of life. Their primary target will originally be the occupying forces of the US Army, and enjoy support by much of the Canadian population. Note the CLA will not have most of the Canadian population join their ranks, I figure Canadians will support someone else doing the fighting, but like anyother nation would prefer to be left alone rather than run the risk of being killed. They can cause trouble for the US, but would be unable to drive them off. They could evolve into a terrorist organization, car bombs in major cities, kidnappings, etc. How many Canadian "Loyalists" would flee the Americans for places in the Empire such as Newfoundland, Hawaii, British Honduras, New Zealands, etc?

The only worthwhile nationalists that you would find in Canada would be Quebecois. Why rebel to rejoin an Empire that did not care enough to protect you? An independent Alaska from the 1870's could be interesting, particularly if it saw a Texas-like development.

Nicole · Oct 4, 2005

Wendell said:
The only worthwhile nationalists that you would find in Canada would be Quebecois. Why rebel to rejoin an Empire that did not care enough to protect you? An independent Alaska from the 1870's could be interesting, particularly if it saw a Texas-like development.

I disagree, I think there would be a large number of English-speaking Canadian nationalists in addition to the Quebecois. Canada does have a national myth of it's own, after all, based around the Loyalists and generally not being American.

Xen · Oct 4, 2005

Imajin said:
I disagree, I think there would be a large number of English-speaking Canadian nationalists in addition to the Quebecois. Canada does have a national myth of it's own, after all, based around the Loyalists and generally not being American.

I agree. Many Canadian's even English speaking ones wouldnt want to be part of the United States, if they did they would have willingly joined. After a bloody war that seen the invading American's destroy their infrastructure, their crops, disrupt their lives, and violence against those people caught in the way of the battle. Most Canadians would know someone who was killed, perhaps having their daughter, wife or sister raped, or sell their bodies in prostitution to American troops, and probably Canadian/British soldiers as well. Theres bound to be some resentment

I also wouldnt have the CLA wanting to rejoin the British Empire, they probably would have resentment against them too for abandoning them. Most likley they'd desire to force the US into giving them independence as a Republic.

Condottiero · Oct 5, 2005

Wasn't this TL about Carlist Spain?

Nicole · Oct 5, 2005

Condottiero said:
Wasn't this TL about Carlist Spain?

Yes, but the unwritten rules say that every thread has to turn into a discussion about North America at some time...

Now we just have to wait for the discussion on how it affects WW2.

Xen · Oct 5, 2005

I wrote these bullets to show the eventual butteflies and asked a few questions about how the Great War would end. However after asking questions about Canada and Austria, this thread has kind of went into a Canadian-American thread. That really was I getting at.

Keep in mind this isnt the final product either, Im only asking for a little help, thats why I called it a preview.

Wendell · Oct 5, 2005

Imajin said:
I disagree, I think there would be a large number of English-speaking Canadian nationalists in addition to the Quebecois. Canada does have a national myth of it's own, after all, based around the Loyalists and generally not being American.

But what they were was British. They left once, so why not again?

Xen · Oct 6, 2005

Wendell said:
But what they were was British. They left once, so why not again?

Some, Im sure, will! However I dont think many Canadians saw themselves as British at this point in time, they saw themselves as Canadians, and like other people of the time were filled with Nationalism. Personally I believe the only difference between a Canadian and an American is an imaginary line drawn on a map, and the system of governments which they live under. Both nations are saw large its foolish to try to define either American or Canadian under such broad terms. Its all regionalism, IE someone in British Columbia will have more in common with someone in Washington state, than they will with someone from New Brunswick. But because of nationalism, people dont see this.

Most Canadians in this conquerd land will likely try to get on with their lives, but probably will support the CLA, no differently than if the US was conquered yesterday by a foreign power and a resistence group formed to fight them.

Wendell · Oct 6, 2005

Xen said:
Some, Im sure, will! However I dont think many Canadians saw themselves as British at this point in time, they saw themselves as Canadians, and like other people of the time were filled with Nationalism. Personally I believe the only difference between a Canadian and an American is an imaginary line drawn on a map, and the system of governments which they live under. Both nations are saw large its foolish to try to define either American or Canadian under such broad terms. Its all regionalism, IE someone in British Columbia will have more in common with someone in Washington state, than they will with someone from New Brunswick. But because of nationalism, people dont see this.

Most Canadians in this conquerd land will likely try to get on with their lives, but probably will support the CLA, no differently than if the US was conquered yesterday by a foreign power and a resistence group formed to fight them.

Canadians weren't so much at this time. Their confederation was only being set up in 1867...

Nicole · Oct 6, 2005

Wendell said:
Canadians weren't so much at this time. Their confederation was only being set up in 1867...

But Canada existed far before that.

"Americans didn't really exist in 1812, Their government was only formed in 1783 after all, they would have easily adjusted to British rerule."
We can see the flaws with that, right? So you have the same problems here.

Wendell · Oct 6, 2005

Imajin said:
But Canada existed far before that.

"Americans didn't really exist in 1812, Their government was only formed in 1783 after all, they would have easily adjusted to British rerule."
We can see the flaws with that, right? So you have the same problems here.

Canada as two provinces well under the Crown...New Brunswick was technically not "Canadian" until 1967, and it was the province establish specifically for fleeing Loyalists from the States.

Xen · Oct 6, 2005

Thats really no different than saying Ohio wasnt really American during the war of 1812 because it had only been part of the Union for little more than a decade, or that the southeast wasnt really American because for a brief time in the 1860s they fought a war with the US to gain independence, even forming their own confederation in the process. By your standards, the Southeast has only been part of the United States as long as Canada has been its own nation.

Wendell · Oct 6, 2005

Xen said:
Thats really no different than saying Ohio wasnt really American during the war of 1812 because it had only been part of the Union for little more than a decade, or that the southeast wasnt really American because for a brief time in the 1860s they fought a war with the US to gain independence, even forming their own confederation in the process. By your standards, the Southeast has only been part of the United States as long as Canada has been its own nation.

They are not comparable.

Condottiero · Oct 7, 2005

Imajin said:
Yes, but the unwritten rules say that every thread has to turn into a discussion about North America at some time... Now we just have to wait for the discussion on how it affects WW2.

So the following TL would be acceptable:
1. Caesar is not killed by Brutus, he leads an offensive over the Parthians.
2. The C.S.A. win the American Civil War.
3. The C.S.A. annex Mexico, Cuba, Puerto Rico and Angola, while the U.S.A. take Canada, Panama and Liberia.
4. The C.S.A. and the U.S.A. help the British to defeat the nazis.
5. The world is divided between the two superpowers: C.S.A. and U.S.A.
6. Political presures make C.S.A. to abandon slavery.

Xen · Oct 7, 2005

Wendell said:
They are not comparable.

Only in your mind. Canadian Nationalism has been in full force since the war of 1812, even if the Confederation only happened in 1867. In many ways the entire reason for the set up of the Canadian government as it was, was to oppose the US. It was feared without a strong central government, Canada would eventually become American. I take that as good of a reason as any to believe Canadian nationalism was alive and well in the nineteenth and early twentieth century.

So what if the west didnt join until later, the American west didnt join til later. Does Oklahoma entering the Union in 1912 make it anyless American when the US entered World War I? I really dont understand your logic, do you care to explain it to us?

Wendell · Oct 8, 2005

Xen said:
Only in your mind. Canadian Nationalism has been in full force since the war of 1812, even if the Confederation only happened in 1867. In many ways the entire reason for the set up of the Canadian government as it was, was to oppose the US. It was feared without a strong central government, Canada would eventually become American. I take that as good of a reason as any to believe Canadian nationalism was alive and well in the nineteenth and early twentieth century.

So what if the west didnt join until later, the American west didnt join til later. Does Oklahoma entering the Union in 1912 make it anyless American when the US entered World War I? I really dont understand your logic, do you care to explain it to us?

Canadian nationalism having not been a pride in being "Canadian," but instead in having been British...You defeat your own argument the moment that you acknowledge that the Confederation was only set up to keep out the Yanks. Oklahoma had long been administered by the U.S. in some form since 1803 (and the panhandle from 1845), so your argument is not only frivolous, but silly as Oklahoma has never pretended to be an independent polity from the U.S., save for the reservations.