Isaac's Empire 2.0

[Ares96]

Originally Posted by Basileus Giorgios

Merry Christmas to all readers.

IMO, you're a day late. Which beings me to another point; when and how do members of the Uniate church celebrate Christmas?

[ByzantineCaesar]

Originally Posted by Basileus Giorgios

Merry Christmas to all readers.

Feliz Natal to you too!

BTW, great update, but I haven't had time to write the uber-feedback post

[cimon]

Originally Posted by ByzantineCaesar

First and foremost, I would like to congratulate our Emperor and Autocract for his birthday. Happy day to you, your Majesty. Rhomania rejoices!

Now, on to that nice update!

This guy tried to depose Alexius IOTL, didn't he? Or am I getting my history confused? Is there any specific reason for him to support Alexius ITTL or is he building up a plot with Isaac the Younger to depose the Emperor?

A major change from 1.0 here. IIRC Alexius fought and defeated Henry's army. I remember something regarding Pisa in all of this, but the city isn't mentioned at all. Also, did Milan support Henry's campaign?

I like this part. You managed to integrate very well two traditional problems of Rhomania, although it's entertaining to see that while the Patriarch supports a more rational approach of theology and education, the Empress Mother goes on to call him a heretic. I'm also looking forward to seeing how the future Emperors will solve the inner conflict between the Constantinopolitans and the Anatolian aristocracy, i.e. if it ever gets solved. Very interesting indeed.

Great! Finally an Emperor who undoubtly supports the "External Wisdom".

Oh no. Are Anna and Michael/John going to be enemies as per OTL? I have always liked your approach on their friendship in 1.0.

What of Bryennios? Did he support Isaac?

Very well-written paragraph. Nice to see Isaac saving his nephew Michael. One would think he would put his own sons on the succession line. What happens to Anna? Does she go with Palaiologos to Sicily or does she abandon him to his fate? Also, what are the impacts of Dalassense's death on Emperor Alexius? IOTL, he looked up to her as if she was a goddess.

The Emirates of Damascus, Aleppo and Mosul? I would like to see an update on that too.

Do I see an early Byzantine Renaissance coming? The victory of philosophy over religion will have a huge impact in the Roman 12th century. I can see a Patriarch trying to get more powerful by criticizing rationalism to its core, maybe generating a major debate in Constantinople. It would be interesting to see some die-hard philosophers such as Plethon. You know, venerating the old Pagan gods and ignoring the Church completely?

I personally suggest you to fix all this mess in the Third Council of Nicaea, using Basil of Caesarea's approach on philosophy and theology which predominated during the Empire's early years.

What an evil cliffhanger BG.

Can we see a bit more on this, please?

I don't find the term "Byzantine Renaissance" quite appropriate,could you please define it?

[037771]

Originally Posted by cimon

I don't find the term "Byzantine Renaissance" quite appropriate,could you please define it?

I...don't. If you start putting '[Insert nationality] in front of 'Renaissance,' it denigrates the Renaissance it was compared to in the first place. Of course, the Renaissance we know of has been butterflied by now, but who is to say that the 'Byzantine' version isn't being compared to something greater. Probably the author...

(Thank you, Dr. Stathakopoulus)

[Basileus Giorgios]

Originally Posted by 037771

(Thank you, Dr. Stathakopoulus)

Yes, quite. A melodic voice goes a long way to making a convincing point, wouldn't you say?

[037771]

Originally Posted by Basileus Giorgios

Yes, quite. A melodic voice goes a long way to making a convincing point, wouldn't you say?

I can hear him now, while I read about the murder of Nikephoros Phokas; in that voice, Tzimiskes just seems a little bit naughty...

[ByzantineCaesar]

Originally Posted by cimon

I don't find the term "Byzantine Renaissance" quite appropriate,could you please define it?

Last Byzantine Renaissance or Palaiologean Renaissance is the name given to the cultural flourishment which took place during the Palaiologean Period, starting with the restoration of the Church of Chora by Theodoros Metochites in the early 14th century and ending in 1453.

[cimon]

Originally Posted by Basileus Giorgios

Merry Christmas to all readers.

And Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to you BG

[Grouchio]

Can't wait for the next chapter!

[Scipio Africanus]

Originally Posted by rldragon

Raptor of Spain.

Can the Turtledove go to both???
But seriously, I am considering embarking upon an ecumenical crusade to reboot RoS now that Christmas is over!
Scipio

[Basileus Giorgios]

Originally Posted by Grouchio

Can't wait for the next chapter!

It'll be along soon enough, you may have to wait a few weeks for it, though, as I have 10,000 words of essays to do. Now, these are essays on Procopius and the reign of Basil II, but they're still things one can very much do without!

[cimon]

Originally Posted by Basileus Giorgios

Thank you!



Indeed it would not. There'll be at least three succession crises in the next century or so, you'll be pleased to know. I may decide to chuck in more, who knows.



Ha, yes, I do try to make this TL reasonably balanced.



In 1.0, I had the renaissance kick-started earlier by the very ATL development of Italian politics in the twelfth century. I'll probably stay with that in 2.0.

As for Isaac, he could do, he's certainly the rival Alexios fears most. But remember he's several years older than his brother, and has arguably led a more active and gruelling life, battling on the frontiers. There's no guarantee that Isaac will even be alive when Alexios departs this world...



I've seen both variants of the name used. I ultimately went for Ke-Ka because that's the one I found in history books, particularly Angold's work, which has been the basis of a lot of IE 2.0. Ka-Ke appears most frequently, it seems, on Wikipedia, which gives me suspicions. I wonder where this divergence comes from?



Welcome aboard.

As for the next update. I've been reading a lot this past few days about Armenians in the Empire, and this has firmly persuaded me that the next chapter should have a much greater focus on the Empire's Armenian Question, which has been simmering but not yet come to the boil. So, if it suits everyone, I propose to wrap up Alexios Komnenos' reign with an update focused on Anatolia in the early part of the twelfth century. Stayed tuned.

There has definitely been an...Armenian Emperor (Leo V) in Byzantium and many Armenian Generals from Armenikon Thema (Armenia) so Armenia justifies some attention.

[cimon]

-West)

Originally Posted by Basileus Giorgios

One doesn't need a "right of succession" to the throne. The acceptance of the urban populace of Constantinople, and the acquiescence of the major generals of the Tagmata is all an eleventh century Byzantine Emperor needs to hold power.



I wouldn't say so- Italy is pretty marginal to the bigger picture, even at this stage. Alexios is far more concerned about protecting the Euphrates frontier from Turkish incursions, as you'll see in the next update. There's plenty of precedent for this sort of thing, after all. See John Tzimiskes' campaigns in Syria and Palestine for perhaps the best example of major Byzantine advances that didn't lead to permanent annexations.



The Palaiologoi were a powerful and influential family from the middle of the eleventh century onward, and became even more so under the OTL Komnenoi.


I'm not entirely sure what point you're trying to make here. Care to enlighten me?

During the Macedonian Dynasty the Byzantine Empire becomes more compact and more Greek,and at that time you have raids and then incursions into Byzantine territory and the Emperors are after a crushing defeat of an enemy by invading his territory without annexing it;it is a frequent phenomenon and the emperors don't want more territories with South- Eastern population who are hostile to Byzantium and some with good cause.Nobody wants a possible two front war(East-West) and the Emperors are careful there and Tsimiskes was a very intelligent and prudent Emperor..Italy is a different matter though and carries additional weight.
Strategically,Italy is more vital to the Empire than Syria or Messopotamia;a country becomes a Europian power by holding lands in Europe not in Anatolia.Italy is the ground of antagonism for the European powers for over 300 years a bit later;even during the time of Napoleon Italy had its importance,plus the fact that the most ardent enemy of Byzantium was the pope.Germans had rubbed his face in dust several times already! he deserved a time of reckoning by the Byzantines.
I will enlighten you about the above but later...
About Palaiologoi-powerful is one thing,near the throne is another-and the throne emenates real power;the Palaiologoi became powerful and near the throne by the middle of 13th century....

[cimon]

Originally Posted by 037771

I...don't. If you start putting '[Insert nationality] in front of 'Renaissance,' it denigrates the Renaissance it was compared to in the first place. Of course, the Renaissance we know of has been butterflied by now, but who is to say that the 'Byzantine' version isn't being compared to something greater. Probably the author...

(Thank you, Dr. Stathakopoulus)

No it doesn't!nationality?certainly-Germany did not have a Renaissance along with other countries which didn't.The term applies as it appears in Western Europe,generated by the Greek non-clerical intelligentia that found refuge in Italian educational institutions, in the face of Turkish onslaught against various parts of the Empire;trying to return the term to the generators of it sounds like a...paradox.

[ByzantineCaesar]

Originally Posted by cimon

No it doesn't!nationality?certainly-Germany did not have a Renaissance along with other countries which didn't.The term applies as it appears in Western Europe,generated by the Greek non-clerical intelligentia that found refuge in Italian educational institutions, in the face of Turkish onslaught against various parts of the Empire;trying to return the term to the generators of it sounds like a...paradox.

Rhomania experienced a period of cultural and artistic flourishment under the Palaiologoi. The Byzantine culture had been stagnated since the Macedonian Dynasty (that also caused the First Byzantine Renaissance) and when Theodoros Metochites put up those wonderful mosaics in the Church of Chora from 1316-1321 and the philosophical debates between Barlaam of Calabria and Gregory Palamas happened Rhomania was once again alive - culturally that is. So, the Byzantines were kind of reborn, similar to what later happened iin Italy. That's why we call it Palaiologean Renaissance. It was indeed the cause of the Italian Renaissance, but was an independent cultural movement at the same time.

[Basileus Giorgios]

After sitting it out last year, I.E has re-entered the Turtledove Awards this year, and I must humbly ask for the electoral support my excellent readers. Let's bring home the gold for a third year.

[Grouchio]

1. When's the next chapter?
2. Will this timeline still be a ByzantineWank?

[Basileus Giorgios]

Originally Posted by Grouchio

1. When's the next chapter?

When I get a free few hours.

Originally Posted by Grouchio

2. Will this timeline still be a ByzantineWank?

I don't think it ever was a "wank"- just fairly optimistic on the Empire. A true wank would've had them conquering all of Arabia and big bits of Russia.

[Grouchio]

What if the Byzantines decided to recreate Alexander's Empire this time?

[Ares96]

Originally Posted by Grouchio

What if the Byzantines decided to recreate Alexander's Empire this time?

Then that'd be a wank too.