"The Bloody Man"

[EdT]

Originally Posted by Thande

Interesting that Charles nearly did what his son did twenty years later in OTL to great success w.r.t. the fire...

Indeed. IOTL, Charles I really did consider returning to London unannounced on several occasions- and each time, it might actually have been rather a smart move on his part. Certainly it remained something that petrified Parliament. Unfortunately, his councillors were always on hand to tell him that it was too risky an idea.

Originally Posted by Thande

The revolutionaries seem to be channelling Wat Tyler and John Ball here. The Edward the Confessor thing is interesting--I assume the flag mentioned is that one actually made up by Norman romantics years after the fact, but most people aren't to know that...

Quite. The arms attributed to Edward the Confessor were actually dreamt up in the 13th century based on a coin minted in the 1050s, but this didn’t stop Henry III from making it a reoccurring motif when he renovated the Palace of Westminster and installed the Painted Chamber. Interestingly, the use of a Lion by the Kings of England may well be equally based in historical fiction; there’s a lot of evidence to suggest that William the Conqueror’s arms were made up as well.

As a final irony, as you mention Wat Tyler, Richard II actually adopted the Confessor’s arms during his reign.

Originally Posted by Thucydides

Great update! It will be interesting to see what our burned prophet does next, shame, I was really enjoying the irony of the circumstances in which he supposedly died.

I couldn’t kill off the Prophet just yet- I have important plans for him! His experience in the fires of London just transforms him into the larger-than-life figure needed to attain mythic status. Plus it’s also given him rather an important revelation which will have a major impact on his, and the prophetess’ actions from now on.

Originally Posted by Beedok

Looking exciting! Congrats on the Turtledove!

Well thanks for voting, and if you could all vote in the Best Timeline awards section too, that’d be great!

Originally Posted by King Henry

Well, all that remains now is to see how the moderates and Scots hedge their bets. Anyway, great to see a new update!

A lot of the moderates will swing behind the King to start off with, as he does represent the legitimate government, after all- if the agitators start doing well, however, this could change quickly. And as for the Scots… well, we’ll be hearing from them in the next post. They have problems of their own, as we shall see.

Originally Posted by imperialaquila

Good to see this back. I look forward to how the surrounding countries react.

The post after next will go into French and Dutch internal politics between 1642ish and 1647; it’s not the best-known period but it’s actually rather interesting, with plenty of scope for things to diverge rather substantially, very quickly. Plus there’s some astonishingly offensive poetry, as previously mentioned. What’s not to like?

[Analytical Engine]

I assume that the Thirty Years' War isn't that different to OTL, or is it?

[Arachnid]

Another great update, but I was just wondering if/when will be returning to the Colonies, we seem to be nearly caught up now that the 2nd Civil War has started.

[Kaiphranos]

Originally Posted by Aracnid

Another great update, but I was just wondering if/when will be returning to the Colonies, we seem to be nearly caught up now that the 2nd Civil War has started.

When we get to a proper cliffhanger, I expect!

(To be honest, with all this action in England, I had almost forgotten about poor Cromwell... )

[Fearless Leader]

YES!

Good to see this back, I enjoyed the latest update a lot and I'm eagerly looking forward to the next installment!

[King Henry]

Originally Posted by Aracnid

Another great update, but I was just wondering if/when will be returning to the Colonies, we seem to be nearly caught up now that the 2nd Civil War has started.

I'm personally finding the drama in Britain a bit more interesting at this point, if only as long as the Prophet John survives.

[Arachnid]

Originally Posted by King Henry

I'm personally finding the drama in Britain a bit more interesting at this point, if only as long as the Prophet John survives.

When the focus was on America I wanted to find out what was going on in Britain, now we've had a series of updates focusing on Britain I want to find out what's going on in America. The grass is always greener on the otherside.

[EdT]

Originally Posted by Analytical Engine

I assume that the Thirty Years' War isn't that different to OTL, or is it?

The majority of the war will be as OTL, or as close as makes no difference; beginning in 1646, however, divergences begin to slip in as the political situation in France and the Netherlands change, so while things are still winding down in Germany, there’s no guarantee that everything pans out quite as OTL. France, remember, was still fighting the Spanish into 1659 IOTL, so even if the majority of business is concluded in 1648 ITTL, it doesn't preclude continued complications elsewhere.

Originally Posted by Aracnid

Another great update, but I was just wondering if/when will be returning to the Colonies, we seem to be nearly caught up now that the 2nd Civil War has started.

Seeing as events in the colonies don’t quite make sense without knowing what’s going on in Britain between 1647 and 1648, we’ll have to wait a little while for that I’m afraid. But hopefully events in the coming few chapters will be quite interesting- next up we have quite a large cliffhanger…

[Kaiphranos]

Originally Posted by EdT

The majority of the war will be as OTL, or as close as makes no difference; beginning in 1646, however, divergences begin to slip in as the political situation in France and the Netherlands change, so while things are still winding down in Germany, there’s no guarantee that everything pans out quite as OTL. France, remember, was still fighting the Spanish into 1659 IOTL, so even if the majority of business is concluded in 1648 ITTL, it doesn't preclude continued complications elsewhere.

Hmm. The mention of 1648 reminds me--how soon will the butterflies reach the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth? I'm going to assume Khmelnytsky's rebellion starts roughly on schedule, at the very least, as will the death of Władysław IV Vasa...

[Ares96]

Originally Posted by Kaiphranos

Hmm. The mention of 1648 reminds me--how soon will the butterflies reach the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth? I'm going to assume Khmelnytsky's rebellion starts roughly on schedule, at the very least, as will the death of Władysław IV Vasa...

Here's hoping the Swedish-Lithuanian Union becomes a fact instead of just a proposition.

[mrsandman]

It will be interesting to see how Cromwell will react to the burning of London.

[EdT]

Originally Posted by Kaiphranos

Hmm. The mention of 1648 reminds me--how soon will the butterflies reach the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth? I'm going to assume Khmelnytsky's rebellion starts roughly on schedule, at the very least, as will the death of Władysław IV Vasa...

Originally Posted by Ares96

Here's hoping the Swedish-Lithuanian Union becomes a fact instead of just a proposition.

I'll be quite honest- while I've worked out the butterflies as far as Denmark, and to a lesser extent Brandenburg, I currently have no fixed idea on how the Second Northern War will pan out. I'd be surprised if the Ukraine doesn't revolt as IOTL however.

When I've finally sorted out what happens in Western Europe I'll have to have a think- it all gets very complicated very quickly! Certainly lots of scope to end up with something completely different from OTL, mind.

Originally Posted by mrsandman

It will be interesting to see how Cromwell will react to the burning of London.

The same as pretty much all the other colonists- he'll be appalled. The struggle between the King and the Army will also be very traumatic for him; neither side will be appealing, and the illegal nature of the Army's action is a particularly bitter blow. It's also worth remembering that somewhere in all of this is Oliver Jr...

[Ares96]

Originally Posted by EdT

I'll be quite honest- while I've worked out the butterflies as far as Denmark, and to a lesser extent Brandenburg, I currently have no fixed idea on how the Second Northern War will pan out. I'd be surprised if the Ukraine doesn't revolt as IOTL however.

When I've finally sorted out what happens in Western Europe I'll have to have a think- it all gets very complicated very quickly! Certainly lots of scope to end up with something completely different from OTL, mind.

Well, if Jasna Gora fails to resist the Swedish artillery, then the rebellion would probably either peter out or just not be as strong, and that might be the right time for Sweden to force a battle and then force the King of Poland to recognise his gains and sign a peace treaty, before Austria can intervene. Also, my offer to help with anything as regards Sweden still stands, so just drop a PM whenever you like.

[EdT]

Originally Posted by Ares96

Well, if Jasna Gora fails to resist the Swedish artillery, then the rebellion would probably either peter out or just not be as strong, and that might be the right time for Sweden to force a battle and then force the King of Poland to recognise his gains and sign a peace treaty, before Austria can intervene. Also, my offer to help with anything as regards Sweden still stands, so just drop a PM whenever you like.

Thank you! I may well take you up on that when the time comes. I was looking at Jasna Gora as a butterfly actually. But I'm still torn between a strong Poland-Lithuania or a weak one, to be honest.

In other news, I just finished something, but can't find a good place to fit it in the main narrative. so here's a quick, unscheduled mini-update, about a suspiciously familiar religious group...

[EdT]

(Taken from “Our Origins” by Henry Christopher, Vulparia University, 1940)

“Who are the Children of Light? Whence comes their faith? The story begins across the Atlantic, in the provincial Leicestershire village of Drayton-in-the-Clay, when a young man named George Fox returned to his home after a journey to London. It was 1644, and the British Revolution had begun. Parties of soldiers travelled the roads and many believed in the imminent appearance of the millennium, the thousand year period of Christ's promised earthly reign. George Fox had been troubled by his visit to London. It had awakened his interest in God, and he soon began to discuss religion with the parish vicar, Nathaniel Stephens. But Stephens’ answers did not satisfy Fox; ritualised petitions to God and complicated interpretations of individual verses, even sentences, in the Bible did not interest him.

So Fox set out on a journey across England to find the truth. He spoke to Episcopalian and Presbyterian, Anabaptist and Baptist. He even spoke to the mad ‘Prophet’ Theaurau John and his bride. He heard all their arguments, their interpretations of the Bible. And gradually, he began to understand that they were all wrong. He realised that for them, the love of God began with the Bible and was swallowed up in a world of scripture and theology that no one had ever seen; the preachers were too busy arguing about ancient prophesy, or the Divine Right of Kings, to talk about what really mattered.

Then George Fox began to despair, for he realised nobody could help him find God. And when he was at his lowest point, and had lost all hope, and had no idea what to do, he heard a voice, which said “There is one, that can help you, and that is Christ”. Fox cried with joy as realised that he had known the answer all along; complex ritual and close reading of the Bible was not required for salvation, and neither was attendance at Church. Abel, Noah, Abraham and Moses were not learned intellectuals but simple keepers of sheep and cattle. Simplicity, the abandonment of luxury, humility; this was the real path to God[1].

Armed with his new-found revelation, Fox went out and travelled the war-ravaged country spreading the word of the Lord. He preached in market-places, fields, and inns, and his powerful words began to attract a small following. While the terrible ‘Salvation Army’ looted and burnt its way across the countryside, Fox and the first Children of Light travelled peaceably and spread the word by example and persuasion, not fire and violence, ministering to increasingly large crowds as they went[2].

Travelling through England in 1647, with opposing armies on the march and bandits plaguing the roads, was a dangerous occupation; at Pontefract in Yorkshire, the Children arrived mid-way through a battle between the two rival sides, and Fox had his hat shot from his head, while on another occasion they were robbed of all they had by highwaymen. Worse still, as the Children grew in number and in fame, they soon attracted the attention of the authorities. Fox and his Friends were arrested several times, and even jailed on more than one occasion[3].

Perhaps the most famous incident occurred in Durham. Fox’s preaching so offended the strictly Presbyterian Scots occupying the city that an angry Scotsman drew his sword and threatened to attack the Children. He challenged Fox to justify his faith, and In reply, Fox quoted St Paul’s second Letter to the Corinthians; “Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.”

From that day, the Children of Light have been called Terrorists by the world's people. The Scots who invented the term meant it mockingly, given the humble and peaceable nature of those they opposed. But the Children adopted the term and made it their own, for as the book of Isaiah says, “For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the LORD: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.”[4]

The descendants of George Fox indeed tremble in terror at the word of the Lord. And though some call them ‘Children of Light’, and others ‘Friends of the Truth’, and still more call them ‘Terrorist’, it matters little. A name matters not at all compared to witnessing the Truth to the world. Christ has come to teach his people himself, and Terrorism spreads this good news to all men...“

_____________________________________________


[1] While the exact circumstances of Fox’s revelations are slightly different from OTL, their content remains the same; ITTL, he spends most of 1647 and 1648 wandering the country.

[2] Given the circumstances, Fox’s views on pacifism are particularly popular amongst a population completely sick of war, although the authorities find them unacceptable for obvious reasons.

[3] This happened IOTL too, but is more extreme ITTL, thanks to the situation that Britain finds itself in.

[4] This is the verse of the Bible that attached itself to Fox IOTL, of course.

[Nicksplace27]

haha I can just imagine a conversation between people in this TL. "Oh what are my religious beliefs? Well, I was raised a Terrorist but I couldn't really handle all the commitment."

[frozenpredator]

another great update.

btw i've been thinking about what you said about Dutch and English conflicts clashing, thats actually guaranteed and you'd need a pre 17th century pod to avoid the Dutch and English from clashing. And its guaranteed that multiple wars will be needed before one has shown its dominance over the other.

Now where it gets interesting is how both fleets were built up:
During the first Anglo-Dutch war the Royal Navy was focused on superior firepower and big ships with lots of guns, the Dutch were focused on Small ships and superior tactics. IOTL the English won and the Dutch reorganised their fleet to incorporate firepower enabling them to win round 2.

ITTL the English might not have their fleet built up to their full potential when they clash, thus losing the first war. The Dutch will carry on as they were, and the English will look at their navy and incorporate some reforms enabling them to break the Dutch navy during round 2.

Though my knowledge on the subject is far form perfect.
Btw if you need ideas for how the butterflies affect the New Netherland colony i'd recommend the book "Island at the Centre of the World" it gives a pretty good overview of the Dutch colony.

[Arachnid]

"Terrorism spreads this good news to all men" best line you've ever written.

[stevep]

Originally Posted by EdT

While the terrible ‘Salvation Army’ looted and burnt its way across the countryside, Fox and the first Children of Light travelled peaceably and spread the word by example and persuasion, not fire and violence, ministering to increasingly large crowds as they went[2].

EdT

Is this just a reference to the assorted armies that are plundering to stay in operation while 'doing the Lord's work' or are we going to have one particular army of religious fanatics that uses this name, possibly rejecting all the current political groups?

Steve

[Arachnid]

I assumed it's the future of the New Model Army.